[fvc-wat-disc] Essays on Voting Systems

Fri Jun 3 11:06:30 EDT 2011

I think the court of public opinion is important, and shouldn't be
discounted.

Majority governments have often backed away from controversial proposals
because of public outcry.  We need to have enough demand to achieve our
goal.

We have some work to do with the electorate: 33% favour the status quo,
33% favour alternative vote (a non-PR system), and 33% favour PR.

For the politicians, PR would be in the interests of the opposition
Liberals, NDP
Greens, and Bloc.  If we could convince them to work together to start a
national discussion, that would be a good start.  If the Conservatives won't
implement it, the opposition could form a unity coalition to get into power
and make it happen.

(There was a precedent for this type of thing, to pass conscription during
W. W. I.)

Kevin.

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Mark Charboneau <
markcharboneau at sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Les et al:
>
> I agree Les that those who are in office and in control don't want to
> change the system that guarantees their future.  Also, I thought that a
> referendum would have enabled the citizens to express their views on a
> flawed proposal that would cost far too much money for taxpayers and be
> nothing but a legacy project for certain politicians.  Its fine for all sort
> of future gazers and business leaders to stare off into the sky and crave
> LRT dreams, but the tax projections of LRT are being hidden from the people
> who will live here and have to share the burden of Region taxes.
>
> However, there are many voters out there who are just not sufficiently
> informed about the theory and reality of proportional representation.  I
> think there is a responsibility by those that know to those who don't know
> to provide the kind of information that Paul and Bob have done.  Isn't that
> what politics of any sort is about, trying to convince others to accept and
> share our ideas on any specific issue?
>
> Otherwise if the whole proposal just seems to be futile because of the
> election of one more majority government, perhaps we just just fold up our
> tents and give up; or alternatively we should start planning for a violent
> overthrow of the government like they are doing in Yemen right now.
>
> Thanks to Bob and Paul for that in formation.  I have found it useful.
>
> Mark Charboneau
>
> On 2011-06-03, at 7:08 AM, Les Kadar wrote:
>
> > Thanks for all of this information.
> > The difficulty in all of this is that the people to convince are those in
> office who don't want to hear it.
> > As a system change has impacts on those that are in it, namely the
> elected officials, any changes to their status, power or influence will be
> viewed with complete negativity and spun to the public as counterproductive
> to the good of the country.
> >
> > While I appreciate the efforts of educating the public and enrolling as
> many voters as possible, I maintain that it is not them that we need to
> harness but those in office.
> >
> > I look at the latest example of misuse of authority in the Regional vote
> that just happened this week where Regional councillors voted down the
> ability of the public to hold a " referendum " on the LRT proposal that has
> been worked on by regional staff now for over 8 years.
> > This right for us to advise those we have apparently elected to "
> represent " not " lead " has been taken away by the very people we elected
> to represent us.
> > It just magnifies my thinking on who to convince to afford us the right
> to a fair vote in this country.
> >
> > Les Kadar.
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: <lanickerson at b2b2c.ca>
> > To: "FVC Waterloo Region Discussion" <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 10:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Essays on Voting Systems
> >
> >
> >> Thanks for this, Bob - these articles are fabulous! They are going to
> help me
> >> understand and explain things with more confidence. How do I contact
> Paul? I
> >> don't think I have his email anymore. I would like to put some of his
> articles
> >> into a handout or chapbook to give to people interested in learning more
> about
> >> MMP.
> >>
> >> Anita
> >>
> >> Quoting Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com>:
> >>
> >>> Hi all:  At last week's event someone asked me what those different
> voting
> >>> system are all about. Paul Nijjar, an active member of Fair Vote
> Waterloo in
> >>> 2007 did considerable research into the system known as "Mixed Member
> >>> Proportional", which he published the summer before the 2007 provincial
> >>> referendum on electoral reform. MMP is the system proposed by the
> Ontario
> >>> Citizens' Coalition to replace the existing First Past The Post system.
> Of
> >>> course, the 2007 referendum outcome was not in favour of change.
> >>>
> >>> In one article Paul lists a glossary of voting system types, which
> might be a
> >>> good place to start if you just need a quick overview of the different
> >>> systems ( http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/26695.html ). The other
> articles
> >>> give in-depth information into the Mixed Member Proportional system.
> >>>
> >>> --Bob.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Coalitions vs. Minority Governments
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/21516.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Three Party Systems and Bob Rae's Government
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/21860.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: MMP vs. Parallel Systems
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/22127.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Effects of the list seat ratio
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/22521.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Power Diffusion
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/22619.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: No Confidence Votes and MMP
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/23002.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Effects of the 3% Threshold
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/23271.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: False Dichotomies
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/23307.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Party Life Cycles
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/24316.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Why Closed Lists?
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/24378.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: A Tired Rehashing of Identity Politics
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/24675.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Party Hackery in Three Paragraphs
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/25303.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: What do List Members Do?
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/25597.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Contradictory Arguments
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/26614.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Glossary (aka Lazy Entry)
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/26695.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Are people happier under MMP?
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/28087.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Things that will annoy you
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/28648.html
> >>>
> >>> MMP 102: Why vote for MMP?
> >>> http://pnijjar.livejournal.com/28827.html
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Anita
> >> Want to have a real say in democracy? Want to see a more democratic,
> >> compassionate Canada? Help me make every vote count! www.fairvote.ca
> >>
> >>
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