[fvc-wat-disc] Sept 8: KPL presentation
Laurel L. Russwurm
laurel.l at russwurm.org
Wed Aug 3 15:25:12 EDT 2016
Non aligned voter?
On 08/01/2016 03:27 PM, Sharon Sommerville wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I took some deliberate time off over the past few days, to re-charge
> and have not been a part of this discussion but it is Monday afternoon
> and time to get back at.
>
> First, so many thanks to Paul for taking this on, we would not have
> something cooking with the library if he hadn't. Thank you Paul.
>
> The format needs to honour both the need for even handedness by the
> library and our work to promote PR. Our power point presentation was
> designed to be as fair as is possible given our mandate ( it was put
> together by a multipartisan committee - 2 Liberals, 1 NDP, 1
> Conservative and 1 non aligned voter) and with additional adaptation
> could be more so. Specifically, the last slide which calls for PR
> could be removed.
>
> My personal preference would be to deliver our presentation followed
> by a robust Q & A and discussion. We could invite a number of folks
> that represent as spectrum political views to participate in the Q &
> A. I am not keen to organize a panel and invite someone from Keep
> Voting Simple as they will be getting lots of media attention due to
> the interest of the MSM to encourage controversy but to maintain the
> educational focus on electoral systems in general & promote dialogue
> in the community.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Kind regards,
> Sharon
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:47 PM, arthurd23 arthurd23
> <arthurd23 at bell.net <mailto:arthurd23 at bell.net>> wrote:
>
> Bob, you're correct but to the majority of voters, voting in FPTP
> is simple and therefore preferred.
>
> Their concern is not fairness or democracy.
>
> Paul, your comments on other pros os FPTP are valid if democracy
> is not important.
>
> My stance is that FPTP is not democratic unless the purpose of
> democracy is to eliminate fair representation for most Canadians.
>
> Unfortunately, for some Canadians, that is a pro for FPTP. In any
> discussion Fairvote would not need to call it a pro.
>
> The geographic balance that FPTP can provide can also be provided
> and even enhanced in a system such as MMP where the
> non-constituency MPs can be awarded with adjustments for
> geographic and diversity factors considered.
>
> Dave
>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com <mailto:bjonkman at sobac.com>>
>> Date: July 29, 2016 at 12:39 PM
>>
>>
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>> Dave Arthur wrote:
>> > The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is that it is simple.
>>
>> But it's not. Try to explain how 39% of the vote results in 54%
>> of the
>> seats in parliament. Why 57% of the votes cast in Kitchener
>> South-Hespeler did not contribute to sending anyone to parliament.
>> That Elizabeth May does not represent 600,000 voters across Canada,
>> but only 104,000 people in Saanich-Gulf Islands (and maybe only the
>> 37,000 people who voted for her).
>>
>> While it is simple to fill in an FPTP ballot, the election
>> results are
>> baffling. And it is just as simple to fill in an MMP ballot (Two X
>> marks! Twice as hard!) or an STV ballot (counting from 1 to 5 is
>> pretty simple), and the election results from any proportional system
>> are much easier to understand.
>>
>> - --Bob.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/29/16 08:25, arthurd23 arthurd23 wrote:
>> > Thanks Paul.
>> >
>> > If we attempt to be impartial, it shouldn't be difficult to have PR
>> > pros vastly outnumber FPTP and AV pros.
>> >
>> > The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is that it is simple. Are
>> > there any others?
>> >
>> > The only advantage of AV is that the winning candidate accumulates
>> > 50% support when you include enough second place and third place
>> > supporters who don't really favour the winning candidate.
>> >
>> > PR has by far the most pros.
>> >
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >> ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Paul Nijjar
>> >> <paul_nijjar at yahoo.ca <mailto:paul_nijjar at yahoo.ca>> Date:
>> July 29, 2016 at 3:18 AM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (CCing to fvc-wat-disc. I do not know whether it will get
>> >> through because I do not know if the mailing list has been
>> >> configured to work with Yahoo. But I will try.)
>> >>
>> >> Okay, we are booked for a presentation at the Kitchener Public
>> >> Library.
>> >>
>> >> I talked with the programming manager at the KPL over the phone
>> >> today. She said that if I got a blurb to her by tomorrow then it
>> >> could be included in the In Touch magazine. I just sent that
>> >> blurb to her now (unfortunately in addition to being lazy my
>> >> stomach started acting up this evening, and I have spent a lot of
>> >> time lying low). Here is the blurb:
>> >>
>> >> ----
>> >>
>> >> Prime Minister Trudeau has promised to make "every vote count"
>> >> in future elections, and the process of electoral reform is
>> >> currently underway. Why might the current electoral system
>> >> benefit from reform? What electoral reforms are being considered?
>> >> What are their advantages and disadvantages? How is this
>> >> electoral reform process structured? How can we participate in
>> >> this process? Representatives from Fair Vote Canada will address
>> >> these issues and take your questions.
>> >>
>> >> ----
>> >>
>> >> I also made a bunch of other promises and decisions that the
>> >> Executive might not like. Here is a summary:
>> >>
>> >> - The event will be held at the central branch of the library on
>> >> Thursday, Sept 8, from 7:00pm-8:30pm. (We also had the option of
>> >> Sept 1 or Sept 22, and I may have made the wrong choice.)
>> >>
>> >> - We were originally booked for Meeting Room A, which holds 60
>> >> people. I implied that we could get over 60 people to the event,
>> >> so we are rebooked for a bigger room (maybe the auditorium? It is
>> >> not clear). Now we have to keep that promise. If only 20 people
>> >> show up we will look pretty bad.
>> >>
>> >> - It sounds as if the KPL is more interested in a discussion of
>> >> different electoral systems, as well as non-electoral system
>> >> options including mandatory voting and electronic voting.
>> >> However, we should still cover the electoral reform process (the
>> >> committee, Monsef's five principles, etc)
>> >>
>> >> - This is a part that will be contentious: the KPL wants this
>> >> presentation to lean towards impartiality, with an honest
>> >> discussion of pros in cons. They are not interested in having us
>> >> advocate for one electoral system in particular, because they do
>> >> not want to come across as being partisan in this issue. I warned
>> >> the KPL that FVC tends to be unkind to FPTP and AV, but promised
>> >> that I would try to steer the direction of the presentation more
>> >> towards public information (Here is what is happening! Here are
>> >> our options! Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each!)
>> >> and less towards sermonizing (Proportional Representation is
>> >> amazing and you are a stupidhead if you don't support it!). I
>> >> have not seen Byron's presentation in a while, but I think that
>> >> it is reasonably close to something that will make the KPL
>> >> happy.
>> >>
>> >> - The current format is looking like a 45-minute presentation
>> >> followed by abundant Q&A. This format is not set in stone. In
>> >> particular, if we wanted to put together a panel (with some
>> >> representatives from Keep Voting Simple?) then that would be okay
>> >> with the KPL too.
>> >>
>> >> Managing Q&A is going to be tricky, because events like this
>> >> attract people who like to ramble instead of asking questions.
>> >> Maybe written questions are the way to go?
>> >>
>> >> - The KPL can provide a projector. We will provide laptops and
>> >> other equipment.
>> >>
>> >> - We are allowed to have a booth outside the presentation if we
>> >> want. (The KPL told us they will not give us their registration
>> >> list, but that's fine and we were not expecting that anyways.) I
>> >> am guessing we could invite LeadNow and other groups (Keep Voting
>> >> Simple?) to have booths as well, but I do not know for sure.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Next Steps ----------
>> >>
>> >> - Figure out what format the presentation will take. It seems to
>> >> me that Byron's presentation is adaptable if we use a
>> >> presentation. If we want to put together a panel then FVC can be
>> >> less even-handed, but the other panellists might be better at
>> >> convincing people than we are.
>> >>
>> >> - Figure out who will present. My guess is that the natural
>> >> choice is Byron or Sean, since they have done this presentation
>> >> before. There might be other good presenters available as well. I
>> >> am also open to doing the presenting in the worst case. (Really?
>> >> I am too anxious to staff a booth but I can present to a big
>> >> audience? I guess my ego is really that huge.)
>> >>
>> >> - Work towards getting a good turnout, especially amongst people
>> >> who are not already voting nerds. KPL marketing will definitely
>> >> help but we have work to do as well:
>> >>
>> >> + If FVC makes some tweets or Facebook posts, can the rest of us
>> >> retweet/like/promote those items? (Sean says that Anita has a
>> >> good social network, so maybe we can exploit that.) + Can we
>> >> personally invite friends, family and enemies to attend the
>> >> presentation? + We should let LeadNow know that this presentation
>> >> is happening. I can probably email Sylvie if she is not already
>> >> on this list. + We can let people know this is happening via the
>> >> announcement list.
>> >>
>> >> I am sure there are other promotional ideas as well. We should
>> >> not rest on our laurels about this.
>> >>
>> >> - We should not stop here. Having one prominent organization
>> >> agree to host a talk is good leverage for convincing others. We
>> >> should reach out to the libraries again. It would also be great
>> >> to hit up service clubs (Rotarians, Lions Club), co-ops (we have
>> >> had good success with housing co-ops in the past), church groups,
>> >> and maybe even the remaining electoral district associations
>> >> (even the Conservatives!).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> - --
>>
>>
>> - --
>> Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com <mailto:bjonkman at sobac.com>>
>> Phone: +1-519-635-9413 <tel:%2B1-519-635-9413>
>> SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/
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>>
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> >
>
>
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--
Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/> §
about.me <http://about.me/laurelrusswurm> § Libreleft Books
<http://libreleft.com>
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