[fvc-wat-disc] What happened with ERRE (Re: fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol 93, Issue 7)

Sat Dec 3 19:51:00 EST 2016

You're not kidding it's confusing ... maybe that was the whole plan ... to
leave us completely bamboozled ... nothing is clear ... referendum (y/n)?
... any change at all (y/n)? ... PR (y/n)?

To whom do we appeal? The committee's work is done, so they're out. ... the
PM? ... the cabinet? ... the opposition?

On 3 December 2016 at 15:39, Sharon Sommerville <sharonsommerville at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Hi Eleanor,
>
> This article appeared in yesterday's Toronto Stat, it is reason for
> hopeful.
>
> https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/12/02/trudeau-insis
> ts-election-reform-still-on-table.html
>
> In it Trudeau is clear and unequivocal again as he has said this a number
> of times since the LeDevoir interview: he will keep his promise, the
> government will introduce a fair electoral system for 2019.
>
> The situation is very confusing. To have the minister melt down in
> Parliament and blame the ERRE for not delivering a specific electoral
> system, to have the Liberal committee members say well maybe change, we
> aren't sure and certainly not in time for 2019 and the prime minister
> states (many times) that actually we are going to do this.  It is
> impossible to understand what is going or who is in charge but the
> recommendations will be on the cabinet's table in January so I believe
> there are still many reasons to push on. Perhaps JT heard from his Jesuit
> teachers who told him to keep his promise. Who knows, but until the
> government introduces legislation in the spring we have reason to hope.
>
> There is also this from yesterday as well:
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/822967875632/
>
> Kind regards,
> Sharon
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Eleanor Grant <eleanor7000 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I meant to add to the above: When the Libs end up in Opposition in 2019,
>> they'll *wish* they had supported PR!
>>
>> If only they could be made to see that now.  PR is actually in the
>> Liberals' best interest too.
>>
>> Eleanor
>>
>> Eleanor
>>
>> On 3 Dec 2016 12:59, "Eleanor Grant" <eleanor7000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't see why Trudeau and Monsef have to do anything. The Libs on ERRE
>>> carried out their *unofficial but actual* mandate: to kill electoral
>>> reform.  Why will anything further happen?
>>>
>>> Eleanor
>>>
>>> On 3 Dec 2016 12:00, <fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org> wrote:
>>>
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>    1. Re: So, what happened today with ERRE ? (Sharon Sommerville)
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Sharon Sommerville <sharonsommerville at gmail.com>
>>> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>> Cc:
>>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 18:49:26 -0500
>>> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] So, what happened today with ERRE ?
>>> That was really well said Anita.
>>>
>>> And, now it is all about leadership.  Does Trudeau have the strength
>>> that his father had when his father pushed through abolishing capital
>>> punishment?  Something that Justin Trudeau said just after he won the
>>> election, "People have always underestimated me."  It really is up to him.
>>> This is one place that we should focus our message, the need for
>>> foresightful leadership to do what is right and set the country up for
>>> the next hundred years.  That last phrase, "Set the country up for the next
>>> 100 years" is a quote from Tim Louis, Liberal candidate for
>>> Kitchener-Conestoga.  Tim indicated that Trudeau said this to him during
>>> the 2015 election & Tim found it very inspiring. Also from Trudeau, "Better
>>> is always possible".
>>>
>>> Sharon
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Anita Nickerson <anitann88 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here's my assessment that I put on facebook last night:
>>>>
>>>> I understand why Maryam Monsef was frustrated today.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't excuse her behaviour. And yes, she lied. Technically, the
>>>> committee fulfilled their mandate. They presented alternatives to FPTP in a
>>>> paper that describes them thoroughly.
>>>>
>>>> They even did what else Monsef requested - produced a majority report.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that there are already textbooks and textbooks written
>>>> about the options for Canada aside from FPTP. This expertise is not lacking
>>>> and this conversation is not new.
>>>>
>>>> What Monsef was really looking for, and no, it wasn't in the mandate,
>>>> was to find out what the Liberals were actually willing to do. What kind of
>>>> system they could get behind, based on what evidence and values. That
>>>> recommendation would have given her a springboard. Something to point to
>>>> and stand behind.
>>>>
>>>> Instead she got a phony majority report - a majority that was
>>>> manufactured by an awful deal between the Cons, Greens and NDP for a
>>>> referendum that only the Cons want. Because otherwise, there would have
>>>> been five reports, a "failure" and no way to move forward (even if a
>>>> referendum moves us backward).
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that the majority was so obviously manufactured and it
>>>> left out the governing party. Who then made sure everybody knew it in their
>>>> supplemental report.
>>>>
>>>> A majority want PR - oh, except the Liberals don't want it, because
>>>> they didn't hear consensus, it's "radical", and they recommend breaking the
>>>> promise.
>>>>
>>>> A majority want a referendum - oh, except the NDP and Greens don't want
>>>> one, they just said that so there would be a majority report and the whole
>>>> thing wasn't dead.
>>>>
>>>> I am not impressed with Monsef's performance today - blaming the
>>>> committee because she is angry was the wrong thing to do, mocking them was
>>>> the wrong thing to do - what embarrassing behaviour.
>>>>
>>>> But I do understand one of the reasons why she is frustrated because
>>>> it's the exact same reason I am frustrated: The Liberals on ERRE may have
>>>> worked hard but in the end they endorsed nothing, are willing to do
>>>> nothing, and just recommended the gov't kill the promise Monsef has been
>>>> charged with finding a way to fulfill.
>>>>
>>>> Essentially, they just made her job harder.
>>>>
>>>> She's finding out what people who have been involved in this for
>>>> decades have always known: That MPs will never willingly recommend
>>>> themselves into an electoral system which may put them out a job by a
>>>> simple act of legislation, no matter how much evidence you put in front of
>>>> them and no matter how passionate you are.
>>>>
>>>> It would be really nice if they would. This last committee was a really
>>>> sincere effort to get there. We all tried hard.
>>>>
>>>> Now Monsef and Trudeau will have to lead. It's not going to be much fun
>>>> for them. If they follow through without a referendum they're going to get
>>>> screamed at not just by the Conservatives (who cares) but by most of their
>>>> Liberal colleagues who mildly to viciously oppose what they want to do.
>>>>
>>>> But first-past-the-post is not much fun for us. And this change is long
>>>> overdue.
>>>>
>>>> If they can tolerate the short term pain from the current group of MPs
>>>> and implement PR, one day Canadians will look back on this and know which
>>>> individuals had the courage and fortitude to get us there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was puzzled  ...  NOW I'm thoroughly confused
>>>>>
>>>>> the minister chastises the committee under her own jurisdiction ...
>>>>>
>>>>> her government got elected partly on a promise to consult on
>>>>> everything, a new style of governing  ... that's what a committee is for
>>>>> ... it consulted and reported its findings and recommendations
>>>>>
>>>>> I can understand the Party's reasons for not wanting PR now; that
>>>>> is,disagreeing with the result
>>>>>
>>>>> BUT what you say publicly is a big thank you and we'll take the
>>>>> recommendations under consideration
>>>>>
>>>>> Berating the committee in Parliament just announces that
>>>>>
>>>>> (a) we didn't really want to consult
>>>>> (b) we wanted our sham consultation to agree with us
>>>>> (c) it didn't ... damn those little !@#$%^&* committee members!
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2 December 2016 at 08:03, Jon Bathmaker <jon.bathmaker at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> S'truth Jenn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is precisely why Big Tent parties are problematic.  Which of
>>>>>> course leads to internal contradictions such as one faction of the Libs
>>>>>> being big on the climate and native rights, both of which have to be
>>>>>> sacrificed if you want to support the Alberta Oil/pipeline Bidniz.  You
>>>>>> vote for them and then the 99 internal groups in the "big tent" fight it
>>>>>> out for whose position gets implemented.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OTOH, if we put up a ton of pressure/demonstrations/actions then the
>>>>>> climate/native faction will have a lot of ammo to fire at the tar
>>>>>> sands/Alberta faction.  And we can just sit back and watch the knives come
>>>>>> out.  :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>> *The Climate is no longer just a Crisis  . . .  it's a FREAKING
>>>>>> EMERGENCY*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/1/2016 11:27 PM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You couldn't plan anything to make your own party look this bad if
>>>>>> you tried.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Platform promises are just a means of engagement?  A public, written
>>>>>> mandate letter that DOESN'T say what you, the author, says it says?  The
>>>>>> only ones not on board are the ones that campaigned to get elected on it?
>>>>>> A party that prides itself on evidence-based decision making (also, that
>>>>>> was a campaign promise but they mean nothing now) making fun of MATH?  How
>>>>>> shall they ever defend Climate Change is a thing if math is off the table?
>>>>>> Or unmuzzling scientists?  Kind of hard to be both unmuzzled and unable to
>>>>>> use math in your scientific arguments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Eleanor Grant <eleanor7000 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What a day!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The 333-page report from ERRE came out around noon Dec 1:
>>>>>>> https://t.co/3dXxV2FMLi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The key pages are:
>>>>>>> - 95, where PR is clearly recommended (tho in kind of obscure
>>>>>>> terminology),
>>>>>>> - 319 (in which govt response is urged), and
>>>>>>> - 321 to the end: the "Supplemental Reports" by Lib members of ERRE
>>>>>>> and NDP & Green members.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It feels (to me anyway) like a team of horses pulling in opposite
>>>>>>> directions. The Liberal mbrs' report denies that a consensus on PR was
>>>>>>> reached, that Cdns were engaged, and that there is enough time to put a new
>>>>>>> system in place and familiarize the population with the issues by 2019.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All afternoon, in the House and in media scrums, Minister Monsef
>>>>>>> repeated the same misrepresentations, in the very same words - plus
>>>>>>> insulting the committee and claiming they hadn't carried out their mandate.
>>>>>>> (Their mandate never had been to call for a specific voting system.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So a day of elation mixed with shock that the governing party would
>>>>>>> twist themselves into such pretzels to deny the obvious and doable
>>>>>>> recommendation of the committee.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone else get the feeling that this was planned all along, from
>>>>>>> the day they agreed to add members to ERRE to make it proportional?  Cdns
>>>>>>> have been taken for a big ride.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eleanor
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political
>>>>>> power in the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime
>>>>>> Minister.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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