[fvc-wat-disc] What happened with ERRE (Re: fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol 93, Issue 7)

Anita Nickerson anitann88 at gmail.com
Sun Dec 4 01:39:52 EST 2016 

You remember that ad with Trudeau on the escalator? I see a commercial with
the escalator going backward.

Anita

On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 9:39 PM, Sharon Sommerville <
sharonsommerville at gmail.com> wrote:

> The entire situation is murky and that opens the door to enormous
> speculation.  Perhaps this is all window dressing aided by political
> theatre and because those of us that care, are passionate about electoral
> reform add our emotions.  Fun times! :)
>
> It is an often quote political chestnut that one shouldn't ascribe
> conspiracy when stupidity is the answer. But here is one piece of
> speculation....  could it be that this a veritable Niagara Falls of
> unintended consequences.  The Liberals, in third place in the polls and the
> House, on the hunt for votes in June '15  & on the move for the left of
> centre position took up electoral reform and the language of PR in the hope
> of scooping up some soft Green & NDP voters in swing ridings.  A number
> of other remarkable turn of events led to of all things a Liberal majority,
> going from 3rd party status to a majority, an unprecedented achievement.
> Wowzer but what about those election promises?  Hmmm, never intended to
> actually have to implement them but hey... let's see what happens.
> Then in another remarkable turn of events, Trudeau gives a complex and
> controversial portfolio to not just a rookie Parliamentarian but a rookie
> politician! Okay... she is well intentioned but way out of her depth and on
> Dec. 1st, the pressure gets to her and she has a public fit of pique in the
> HoC.
>
> As it turns out during the ERRE committee investigations, the evidence
> for the efficacy of PR in undeniable, hey who knew? What is the LPC to
> do, we just got back to governing and now we have to implement some crazy
> European (the food, architecture, wine and beer is great but we aren't so
> interested in their electoral systems) electoral systems where we have to
> share power, forever. Hey not what we had in mind.  Okay, you guys on the
> ERRE committee, say anything, do anything just don't endorse PR, we don't
> care how you do it, make something up, alright?  Hey, Francis you looked
> great doing that pretzel thing on national TV on Thursday.  But, Trudeau
> says, that's my credibility is on the line here and it has been a tough
> week what with my comments on the death of Castro and the KinderMorgan
> announcement so I'm just going to say we are still on for electoral reform
> and we will figure it out as we go.  There are a few rabbits we can pull
> out this hat, let's see what that new House Leader can do, she is on record
> as being an AV supporter so maybe she can .....   and so on.
>
> One thing we can do starting Monday is to get everyone we know that
> supports PR to answer the questionnaire.  Write letters to the editor of
> the Record, NP, G&M, Macleans and the Star, write & visit MPs, write
> Monsef, Trudeau & Butts and throw Telford in there too.
>
> I wonder how much it would cost to engage the PR firm that did Trudeau's
> commercials during the election.  Turns out they are pretty good at what
> they do.
>
> Cheerio,
> Sharon
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 7:51 PM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You're not kidding it's confusing ... maybe that was the whole plan ...
>> to leave us completely bamboozled ... nothing is clear ... referendum
>> (y/n)? ... any change at all (y/n)? ... PR (y/n)?
>>
>> To whom do we appeal? The committee's work is done, so they're out. ...
>> the PM? ... the cabinet? ... the opposition?
>>
>> On 3 December 2016 at 15:39, Sharon Sommerville <
>> sharonsommerville at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Eleanor,
>>>
>>> This article appeared in yesterday's Toronto Stat, it is reason for
>>> hopeful.
>>>
>>> https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/12/02/trudeau-insis
>>> ts-election-reform-still-on-table.html
>>>
>>> In it Trudeau is clear and unequivocal again as he has said this a
>>> number of times since the LeDevoir interview: he will keep his promise,
>>> the government will introduce a fair electoral system for 2019.
>>>
>>> The situation is very confusing. To have the minister melt down in
>>> Parliament and blame the ERRE for not delivering a specific electoral
>>> system, to have the Liberal committee members say well maybe change, we
>>> aren't sure and certainly not in time for 2019 and the prime minister
>>> states (many times) that actually we are going to do this.  It is
>>> impossible to understand what is going or who is in charge but the
>>> recommendations will be on the cabinet's table in January so I believe
>>> there are still many reasons to push on. Perhaps JT heard from his Jesuit
>>> teachers who told him to keep his promise. Who knows, but until the
>>> government introduces legislation in the spring we have reason to hope.
>>>
>>> There is also this from yesterday as well:
>>>
>>> http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/822967875632/
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Sharon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Eleanor Grant <eleanor7000 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I meant to add to the above: When the Libs end up in Opposition in
>>>> 2019, they'll *wish* they had supported PR!
>>>>
>>>> If only they could be made to see that now.  PR is actually in the
>>>> Liberals' best interest too.
>>>>
>>>> Eleanor
>>>>
>>>> Eleanor
>>>>
>>>> On 3 Dec 2016 12:59, "Eleanor Grant" <eleanor7000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't see why Trudeau and Monsef have to do anything. The Libs on
>>>>> ERRE carried out their *unofficial but actual* mandate: to kill electoral
>>>>> reform.  Why will anything further happen?
>>>>>
>>>>> Eleanor
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3 Dec 2016 12:00, <fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>
>>>>>    1. Re: So, what happened today with ERRE ? (Sharon Sommerville)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>> From: Sharon Sommerville <sharonsommerville at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> Cc:
>>>>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 18:49:26 -0500
>>>>> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] So, what happened today with ERRE ?
>>>>> That was really well said Anita.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, now it is all about leadership.  Does Trudeau have the strength
>>>>> that his father had when his father pushed through abolishing capital
>>>>> punishment?  Something that Justin Trudeau said just after he won the
>>>>> election, "People have always underestimated me."  It really is up to him.
>>>>> This is one place that we should focus our message, the need for
>>>>> foresightful leadership to do what is right and set the country up
>>>>> for the next hundred years.  That last phrase, "Set the country up for the
>>>>> next 100 years" is a quote from Tim Louis, Liberal candidate for
>>>>> Kitchener-Conestoga.  Tim indicated that Trudeau said this to him during
>>>>> the 2015 election & Tim found it very inspiring. Also from Trudeau, "Better
>>>>> is always possible".
>>>>>
>>>>> Sharon
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Anita Nickerson <anitann88 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's my assessment that I put on facebook last night:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I understand why Maryam Monsef was frustrated today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't excuse her behaviour. And yes, she lied. Technically, the
>>>>>> committee fulfilled their mandate. They presented alternatives to FPTP in a
>>>>>> paper that describes them thoroughly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They even did what else Monsef requested - produced a majority report.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is that there are already textbooks and textbooks written
>>>>>> about the options for Canada aside from FPTP. This expertise is not lacking
>>>>>> and this conversation is not new.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What Monsef was really looking for, and no, it wasn't in the mandate,
>>>>>> was to find out what the Liberals were actually willing to do. What kind of
>>>>>> system they could get behind, based on what evidence and values. That
>>>>>> recommendation would have given her a springboard. Something to point to
>>>>>> and stand behind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instead she got a phony majority report - a majority that was
>>>>>> manufactured by an awful deal between the Cons, Greens and NDP for a
>>>>>> referendum that only the Cons want. Because otherwise, there would have
>>>>>> been five reports, a "failure" and no way to move forward (even if a
>>>>>> referendum moves us backward).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is that the majority was so obviously manufactured and it
>>>>>> left out the governing party. Who then made sure everybody knew it in their
>>>>>> supplemental report.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A majority want PR - oh, except the Liberals don't want it, because
>>>>>> they didn't hear consensus, it's "radical", and they recommend breaking the
>>>>>> promise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A majority want a referendum - oh, except the NDP and Greens don't
>>>>>> want one, they just said that so there would be a majority report and the
>>>>>> whole thing wasn't dead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not impressed with Monsef's performance today - blaming the
>>>>>> committee because she is angry was the wrong thing to do, mocking them was
>>>>>> the wrong thing to do - what embarrassing behaviour.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I do understand one of the reasons why she is frustrated because
>>>>>> it's the exact same reason I am frustrated: The Liberals on ERRE may have
>>>>>> worked hard but in the end they endorsed nothing, are willing to do
>>>>>> nothing, and just recommended the gov't kill the promise Monsef has been
>>>>>> charged with finding a way to fulfill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Essentially, they just made her job harder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She's finding out what people who have been involved in this for
>>>>>> decades have always known: That MPs will never willingly recommend
>>>>>> themselves into an electoral system which may put them out a job by a
>>>>>> simple act of legislation, no matter how much evidence you put in front of
>>>>>> them and no matter how passionate you are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be really nice if they would. This last committee was a
>>>>>> really sincere effort to get there. We all tried hard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now Monsef and Trudeau will have to lead. It's not going to be much
>>>>>> fun for them. If they follow through without a referendum they're going to
>>>>>> get screamed at not just by the Conservatives (who cares) but by most of
>>>>>> their Liberal colleagues who mildly to viciously oppose what they want to
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But first-past-the-post is not much fun for us. And this change is
>>>>>> long overdue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If they can tolerate the short term pain from the current group of
>>>>>> MPs and implement PR, one day Canadians will look back on this and know
>>>>>> which individuals had the courage and fortitude to get us there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Donald Fraser <
>>>>>> donaldafraser at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was puzzled  ...  NOW I'm thoroughly confused
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the minister chastises the committee under her own jurisdiction ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> her government got elected partly on a promise to consult on
>>>>>>> everything, a new style of governing  ... that's what a committee is for
>>>>>>> ... it consulted and reported its findings and recommendations
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can understand the Party's reasons for not wanting PR now; that
>>>>>>> is,disagreeing with the result
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BUT what you say publicly is a big thank you and we'll take the
>>>>>>> recommendations under consideration
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Berating the committee in Parliament just announces that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (a) we didn't really want to consult
>>>>>>> (b) we wanted our sham consultation to agree with us
>>>>>>> (c) it didn't ... damn those little !@#$%^&* committee members!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2 December 2016 at 08:03, Jon Bathmaker <jon.bathmaker at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> S'truth Jenn.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is precisely why Big Tent parties are problematic.  Which of
>>>>>>>> course leads to internal contradictions such as one faction of the Libs
>>>>>>>> being big on the climate and native rights, both of which have to be
>>>>>>>> sacrificed if you want to support the Alberta Oil/pipeline Bidniz.  You
>>>>>>>> vote for them and then the 99 internal groups in the "big tent" fight it
>>>>>>>> out for whose position gets implemented.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OTOH, if we put up a ton of pressure/demonstrations/actions then
>>>>>>>> the climate/native faction will have a lot of ammo to fire at the tar
>>>>>>>> sands/Alberta faction.  And we can just sit back and watch the knives come
>>>>>>>> out.  :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>> *The Climate is no longer just a Crisis  . . .  it's a FREAKING
>>>>>>>> EMERGENCY*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12/1/2016 11:27 PM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You couldn't plan anything to make your own party look this bad if
>>>>>>>> you tried.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Platform promises are just a means of engagement?  A public,
>>>>>>>> written mandate letter that DOESN'T say what you, the author, says it
>>>>>>>> says?  The only ones not on board are the ones that campaigned to get
>>>>>>>> elected on it?  A party that prides itself on evidence-based decision
>>>>>>>> making (also, that was a campaign promise but they mean nothing now) making
>>>>>>>> fun of MATH?  How shall they ever defend Climate Change is a thing if math
>>>>>>>> is off the table?  Or unmuzzling scientists?  Kind of hard to be both
>>>>>>>> unmuzzled and unable to use math in your scientific arguments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Eleanor Grant <
>>>>>>>> eleanor7000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What a day!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The 333-page report from ERRE came out around noon Dec 1:
>>>>>>>>> https://t.co/3dXxV2FMLi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The key pages are:
>>>>>>>>> - 95, where PR is clearly recommended (tho in kind of obscure
>>>>>>>>> terminology),
>>>>>>>>> - 319 (in which govt response is urged), and
>>>>>>>>> - 321 to the end: the "Supplemental Reports" by Lib members of
>>>>>>>>> ERRE and NDP & Green members.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It feels (to me anyway) like a team of horses pulling in opposite
>>>>>>>>> directions. The Liberal mbrs' report denies that a consensus on PR was
>>>>>>>>> reached, that Cdns were engaged, and that there is enough time to put a new
>>>>>>>>> system in place and familiarize the population with the issues by 2019.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All afternoon, in the House and in media scrums, Minister Monsef
>>>>>>>>> repeated the same misrepresentations, in the very same words - plus
>>>>>>>>> insulting the committee and claiming they hadn't carried out their mandate.
>>>>>>>>> (Their mandate never had been to call for a specific voting system.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So a day of elation mixed with shock that the governing party
>>>>>>>>> would twist themselves into such pretzels to deny the obvious and doable
>>>>>>>>> recommendation of the committee.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyone else get the feeling that this was planned all along, from
>>>>>>>>> the day they agreed to add members to ERRE to make it proportional?  Cdns
>>>>>>>>> have been taken for a big ride.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Eleanor
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political
>>>>>>>> power in the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime
>>>>>>>> Minister.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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