[fvc-wat-disc] The Record column by Luisa D'Amato

Sat Jul 9 21:12:34 EDT 2016

Hi Cathe,

Here it is:

http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/6759835-public-needs-to-be-educated-about-vote/

Cheers,
Sharon

On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 12:46 PM, <cdcampbell9 at gmail.com> wrote:

> What does Don's letter say?
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
> *From: *Sharon Sommerville
> *Sent: *Saturday, July 9, 2016 8:35 AM
> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] The Record column by Luisa D'Amato
>
> Congratulations Donald!  Your letter is today's lead in the Record's
> Letters to the Editor.
>
> Thank you & hope you are having a great holiday,
>
> Sharon
>
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> thanks, Laurel ... as I stated before I don't really want a referendum
>> because the public is uninformed ... But it gave me an excuse to say what
>> that education should be.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Don
>>
>> On 4 July 2016 at 08:28, Laurel L. Russwurm <laurel.l at russwurm.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It doesn't matter if the your letter or comments please everyone, Don.
>>> In a democracy every voice needs to be heard, so the big picture is
>>> properly addressed by policy and law.  Bob left a photocopy of an awful
>>> David Akin article praising FPTP laying around, Akin argues FPTP allows us
>>> to disagree while PR will reduce politics to one voice.   But he's got it
>>> backward.  What we have now makes every party say the same thing because
>>> they all need the most voters ... so the reality is what we have is big
>>> tent parties that try to pretend they are everything to everyone, and
>>> disagreement within is dangerous.
>>>
>>> PR is so powerful because when we say what we think, we can find out
>>> where consensus lays, but also see other points of view, find out what
>>> works and what doesn't so we can refine our thoughts and arguments.  (Like
>>> beta readers for a self publishing novelist, there is no wrong answer.  We
>>> need to learn from each other, brainstorm together.  It is decidedly weird
>>> to argue against better democracy by arguing against direct democracy.   As
>>> Jenn points out, what you've done well is to articulate an important part
>>> of why a referendum is as inappropriate here as in the UK.
>>>
>>> If we lived in Switzerland where they are referenda mad, as a matter of
>>> course they spend 2 years educating the public before each one.  The
>>> Canadian experience is different: not only is the populace largely in the
>>> dark because we have
>>> (a) no experience of PR
>>> (b) no education about it
>>> (c) the media has spectacularly failed to inform us
>>> AND
>>> (d) our winner-take-all system inflicts time limits.  No matter how good
>>> the idea when government changes the new guys won't touch it.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Laurel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 06/30/2016 09:06 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>>>
>>> Actually, Donald, that isn't true.  I think it is a great message!!
>>>
>>> Because, "polls show that 62% of Canadians want a referendum" but how
>>> many of those people want an education campaign FIRST?  Why don't you ask
>>> that question, Mr. Pollster, because I'm sure Canada doesn't think the
>>> disgrace that was the Brexit referendum is anything to follow.
>>>
>>> And we can't make THAT a thing until we have people saying they want an
>>> education component.
>>>
>>> So, good job in getting that ball rolling.  :)
>>>
>>> Jenn
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK I take it my response does not please our group ... my rationale for
>>>> saying that a referendum would be OK with public education FIRST ... was to
>>>> give the public education
>>>>
>>>> If I didn't respond that such a referendum would be OK then I didn't
>>>> have a reason to exhibit in the letter what we would (and are) presenting
>>>> to the public.
>>>>
>>>> On 29 June 2016 at 21:20, Bob Jonkman < <bjonkman at sobac.com>
>>>> bjonkman at sobac.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2016-06-29 08:32 PM, Laurel L. Russwurm wrote:
>>>>> > Bob:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Your response here needs to be posted as an article on the fvcwrc
>>>>> > blog.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Maybe illustrated with a copy of the FVC postcard picture and an
>>>>> > invitation to people to come pick up a postcard and/or ask
>>>>> > questions at the Fair Vote booth at the upcoming summer festivals.
>>>>>
>>>>> Done!
>>>>>
>>>>>  http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/on-referenda-consultations-and-postcards/
>>>>>
>>>>> The blog is also open for contributions by Fair Vote Waterloo members.
>>>>> Sign up at https://www.fairvotewrc.ca/wp-login.php?action=register and
>>>>> write something!
>>>>>
>>>>> - --Bob.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > On 06/29/2016 12:23 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>>>>> >> Yes, very disappointing.  I couldn't believe you guys were
>>>>> >> tweeting it to make people read that piece of rubbish.  I'm sorry
>>>>> >> you had to be the poster-boy for "but I did get a second
>>>>> >> viewpoint" journalism.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com
>>>>> >> <mailto: <bjonkman at sobac.com>bjonkman at sobac.com>> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> > I get quoted in today's column by Luisa D'Amato:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/6743051-d-amato-despite-brexit-we-need-a-referendum-on-electoral-reform/
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> D’Amato: Despite Brexit, we need a referendum on electoral
>>>>> >> reform
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Bob Jonkman, co-chair of the Waterloo Region chapter of Fair
>>>>> >> Vote Canada, says there is barely time to put a new system in
>>>>> >> place, let alone ask people what they think of it
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Ms. D'Amato and I had a 20 minute conversation yesterday and
>>>>> > that's only a brief and under-representative quote of what we spoke
>>>>> > about. Among other things, I expressed my opinion that a referendum
>>>>> > on Electoral Reform isn't necessary because:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 1) Parliament (and provincial legislatures) may change the
>>>>> > electoral system with a vote in parliament, as they have done for
>>>>> > every other electoral reform issue such as giving the vote to
>>>>> > women
>>>>> >>> (1917-1918) or
>>>>> > First Nations people (1960!)
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 2) A referendum on electoral reform is not a constitutional
>>>>> > requirement. The only issue that affects consitutionality is seat
>>>>> > allocation to the provinces, and that requirement is easily met by
>>>>> >>> not
>>>>> > extending electoral boundaries across provincial lines. (We didn't
>>>>> > discuss it, but there have been many electoral boundary changes,
>>>>> > notably before the 2015 election, which didn't go to a referendum
>>>>> > and were perfectly constitutional)
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 3) That an effective and equal vote is a right, and that the
>>>>> > First-Past-The-Post system violates that right, and rights issues
>>>>> > are never decided by referenda.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I spoke of the rarity of referenda in Canada, that the only
>>>>> > national referenda have been on issues like prohibition (I thought
>>>>> > that was in the 1930's, but it was in 1898), and the separation of
>>>>> > Quebec (1992). Ms. D'Amato pointed out that we had a municipal
>>>>> > referendum on fluoridation, and pointed out the many provincial
>>>>> > referenda on electoral reform.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > We talked about the 2007 referendum in Ontario -- that example is
>>>>> > a great reason to avoid referenda on these topics. Although the
>>>>> >>> McGuinty
>>>>> > Liberals made it an election promise in 2003, the Citizens'
>>>>> > Assembly wasn't formed until 2006, leaving them only six months to
>>>>> > become experts in voting systems and make a recommendation.
>>>>> > Elections
>>>>> >>> Ontario
>>>>> > did not have enough information documents available; Fair Vote
>>>>> > Waterloo members went door-to-door, and we ran out. Elections
>>>>> > Ontario themselves were prohibited from giving out information on
>>>>> > the
>>>>> >>> proposed
>>>>> > voting system, and when voters went to the polls in October most
>>>>> > didn't even know there was a referendum on.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I expressed dismay that it took the Federal Liberal government
>>>>> > eight months to form the current All-party Parliamentary Committee,
>>>>> > that
>>>>> >>> the
>>>>> > Committee's proposal is due on 1 December (and consultations need
>>>>> > to wrapped up by 1 October), that the time it would take to move a
>>>>> > bill through parliament could be as much as year, what with
>>>>> > debate, multiple reading, and senate approval, and that Elections
>>>>> > Canada will need a year to re-tool for a new electoral system.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > And that whole conversation was distilled down to the one
>>>>> > sentence.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --Bob.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
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>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> - --
>>>>> >> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much
>>>>> >> political power in the hands of one person as Canada does with
>>>>> >> her Prime Minister.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in
>>> the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/> §
>>> about.me <http://about.me/laurelrusswurm> § Libreleft Books
>>> <http://libreleft.com>
>>>
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