[fvc-wat-disc] Sept 8: KPL presentation

Bob Jonkman bjonkman at sobac.com
Fri Jul 29 12:39:39 EDT 2016 

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Dave Arthur wrote:
> The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is that it is simple.

But it's not. Try to explain how 39% of the vote results in 54% of the
seats in parliament. Why 57% of the votes cast in Kitchener
South-Hespeler did not contribute to sending anyone to parliament.
That Elizabeth May does not represent 600,000 voters across Canada,
but only 104,000 people in Saanich-Gulf Islands (and maybe only the
37,000 people who voted for her).

While it is simple to fill in an FPTP ballot, the election results are
baffling. And it is just as simple to fill in an MMP ballot (Two X
marks! Twice as hard!) or an STV ballot (counting from 1 to 5 is
pretty simple), and the election results from any proportional system
are much easier to understand.

- --Bob.



On 07/29/16 08:25, arthurd23 arthurd23 wrote:
> Thanks Paul.
> 
> If we attempt to be impartial, it shouldn't be difficult to have PR
> pros vastly outnumber FPTP and AV pros.
> 
> The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is that it is simple. Are
> there any others?
> 
> The only advantage of AV is that the winning candidate accumulates
> 50% support when you include enough second place and third place
> supporters who don't really favour the winning candidate.
> 
> PR has by far the most pros.
> 
> Dave
> 
>> ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Paul Nijjar
>> <paul_nijjar at yahoo.ca> Date: July 29, 2016 at 3:18 AM
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> (CCing to fvc-wat-disc. I do not know whether it will get
>> through because I do not know if the mailing list has been
>> configured to work with Yahoo. But I will try.)
>> 
>> Okay, we are booked for a presentation at the Kitchener Public 
>> Library.
>> 
>> I talked with the programming manager at the KPL over the phone
>> today. She said that if I got a blurb to her by tomorrow then it
>> could be included in the In Touch magazine. I just sent that
>> blurb to her now (unfortunately in addition to being lazy my
>> stomach started acting up this evening, and I have spent a lot of
>> time lying low). Here is the blurb:
>> 
>> ----
>> 
>> Prime Minister Trudeau has promised to make "every vote count"
>> in future elections, and the process of electoral reform is
>> currently underway. Why might the current electoral system
>> benefit from reform? What electoral reforms are being considered?
>> What are their advantages and disadvantages? How is this
>> electoral reform process structured? How can we participate in
>> this process? Representatives from Fair Vote Canada will address
>> these issues and take your questions.
>> 
>> ----
>> 
>> I also made a bunch of other promises and decisions that the
>> Executive might not like. Here is a summary:
>> 
>> - The event will be held at the central branch of the library on 
>> Thursday, Sept 8, from 7:00pm-8:30pm. (We also had the option of 
>> Sept 1 or Sept 22, and I may have made the wrong choice.)
>> 
>> - We were originally booked for Meeting Room A, which holds 60
>> people. I implied that we could get over 60 people to the event,
>> so we are rebooked for a bigger room (maybe the auditorium? It is
>> not clear). Now we have to keep that promise. If only 20 people
>> show up we will look pretty bad.
>> 
>> - It sounds as if the KPL is more interested in a discussion of 
>> different electoral systems, as well as non-electoral system
>> options including mandatory voting and electronic voting.
>> However, we should still cover the electoral reform process (the
>> committee, Monsef's five principles, etc)
>> 
>> - This is a part that will be contentious: the KPL wants this 
>> presentation to lean towards impartiality, with an honest
>> discussion of pros in cons. They are not interested in having us
>> advocate for one electoral system in particular, because they do
>> not want to come across as being partisan in this issue. I warned
>> the KPL that FVC tends to be unkind to FPTP and AV, but promised
>> that I would try to steer the direction of the presentation more
>> towards public information (Here is what is happening! Here are
>> our options! Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each!)
>> and less towards sermonizing (Proportional Representation is
>> amazing and you are a stupidhead if you don't support it!). I
>> have not seen Byron's presentation in a while, but I think that
>> it is reasonably close to something that will make the KPL
>> happy.
>> 
>> - The current format is looking like a 45-minute presentation
>> followed by abundant Q&A. This format is not set in stone. In
>> particular, if we wanted to put together a panel (with some
>> representatives from Keep Voting Simple?) then that would be okay
>> with the KPL too.
>> 
>> Managing Q&A is going to be tricky, because events like this
>> attract people who like to ramble instead of asking questions.
>> Maybe written questions are the way to go?
>> 
>> - The KPL can provide a projector. We will provide laptops and
>> other equipment.
>> 
>> - We are allowed to have a booth outside the presentation if we
>> want. (The KPL told us they will not give us their registration
>> list, but that's fine and we were not expecting that anyways.) I
>> am guessing we could invite LeadNow and other groups (Keep Voting
>> Simple?) to have booths as well, but I do not know for sure.
>> 
>> 
>> Next Steps ----------
>> 
>> - Figure out what format the presentation will take. It seems to
>> me that Byron's presentation is adaptable if we use a
>> presentation. If we want to put together a panel then FVC can be
>> less even-handed, but the other panellists might be better at
>> convincing people than we are.
>> 
>> - Figure out who will present. My guess is that the natural
>> choice is Byron or Sean, since they have done this presentation
>> before. There might be other good presenters available as well. I
>> am also open to doing the presenting in the worst case. (Really?
>> I am too anxious to staff a booth but I can present to a big
>> audience? I guess my ego is really that huge.)
>> 
>> - Work towards getting a good turnout, especially amongst people
>> who are not already voting nerds. KPL marketing will definitely
>> help but we have work to do as well:
>> 
>> + If FVC makes some tweets or Facebook posts, can the rest of us 
>> retweet/like/promote those items? (Sean says that Anita has a
>> good social network, so maybe we can exploit that.) + Can we
>> personally invite friends, family and enemies to attend the 
>> presentation? + We should let LeadNow know that this presentation
>> is happening. I can probably email Sylvie if she is not already
>> on this list. + We can let people know this is happening via the
>> announcement list.
>> 
>> I am sure there are other promotional ideas as well. We should
>> not rest on our laurels about this.
>> 
>> - We should not stop here. Having one prominent organization
>> agree to host a talk is good leverage for convincing others. We
>> should reach out to the libraries again. It would also be great
>> to hit up service clubs (Rotarians, Lions Club), co-ops (we have
>> had good success with housing co-ops in the past), church groups,
>> and maybe even the remaining electoral district associations
>> (even the Conservatives!).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
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- -- 


- --
Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com>          Phone: +1-519-635-9413
SOBAC Microcomputer Services             http://sobac.com/sobac/
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