[fvc-wat-disc] The Record column by Luisa D'Amato

Thu Jun 30 14:46:45 EDT 2016

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Hi Donald: I may disagree, but you may be right.

Please do submit your letter to The Record; if it gets published and
edited your text "as submitted" can be included on the Mirror page of
our media collection at http://fairvotewrc.ca/media .  If it doesn't
get printed at all then you should post it as an article on the blog.
 In fact, you should post it as an article on the blog regardless!

- --Bob

On 2016-06-30 08:25 AM, Donald Fraser wrote:
> It was at the top of this Email chain ... but here it is again
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Editor,
> 
> 
> 
> Re: Despite Brexit, we need a referendum on electoral reform_Luisa 
> D’Amato_June 28,2016
> 
> 
> 
> Philosophically the public should be consulted on this issue, but
> not without widespread public education about Proportional
> Representation (PR). First educate the public, then hold a vote.
> 
> 
> There have been three provincial referenda on PR in Canada
> (British Columbia May 17, 2005, Prince Edward Island Nov 28, 2005,
> Ontario Oct 10, 2007). All three failed, not because PR benefits
> were rejected but because the public was not informed properly.
> 
> 
> 
> Without country-wide public education, a referendum should not be
> held. Rather, the decision should be left to the committee based on
> public input, because an uniformed referendum vote will most
> certainly reject change no matter how beneficial it may be.
> 
> 
> 
> Public education should consist of 3 parts.
> 
> 
> 
> First, the ballot should be shown. Most voters fear that voting
> will be confusing. A Mixed Member PR ballot consists of space to
> vote for the local candidate as we do now and then another space to
> vote for the party of choice (which can differ from the party of
> the chosen candidate if the voter wishes) ... simple.
> 
> 
> 
> Second, voters should be encouraged by the major benefits of PR.
> 
> ·        Every vote counts toward giving the voter's party of
> choice the same percentage of seats in Ottawa as the party received
> in national vote count.
> 
> ·        Strategic voting which can produce false majorities (a
> majority of seats without a majority percentage of votes) becomes
> unnecessary. A citizen can vote for the party that most matches
> his/her ideals and be assured that that party will get its fair
> share of seats.
> 
> ·        Parties can present their true platforms instead of having
> to compromise them to get elected.
> 
> 
> 
> Third, voters should be encouraged by learning the major countries
> that use PR successfully such as Germany, Denmark, Japan,
> Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Republic of Ireland, Scotland,
> Sweden, Wales and many more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yours Truly,
> 
> Donald A Fraser,
> 
> 184 Forsyth Drive,
> 
> Waterloo, Ontario,
> 
> N2L1A2,
> 
> 519-576-9210
> 
> On 30 June 2016 at 05:22, Sharon Sommerville
> <sharonsommerville at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Sorry Donald, I missed your response. Could you forward it to
>> me?
>> 
>> With thanks, Sharon
>> 
>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Donald Fraser
>> <donaldafraser at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> OK I take it my response does not please our group ... my
>>> rationale for saying that a referendum would be OK with public
>>> education FIRST ... was to give the public education
>>> 
>>> If I didn't respond that such a referendum would be OK then I
>>> didn't have a reason to exhibit in the letter what we would
>>> (and are) presenting to the public.
>>> 
>>> On 29 June 2016 at 21:20, Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
> On 2016-06-29 08:32 PM, Laurel L. Russwurm wrote:
>>>>>> Bob:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Your response here needs to be posted as an article on
>>>>>> the fvcwrc blog.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Maybe illustrated with a copy of the FVC postcard picture
>>>>>> and an invitation to people to come pick up a postcard
>>>>>> and/or ask questions at the Fair Vote booth at the
>>>>>> upcoming summer festivals.
> 
> Done!
> 
> http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/on-referenda-consultations-and-postcards/
>
>  The blog is also open for contributions by Fair Vote Waterloo
> members. Sign up at
> https://www.fairvotewrc.ca/wp-login.php?action=register and write
> something!
> 
> --Bob.
> 
> 
>>>>>> On 06/29/2016 12:23 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>>>>>>> Yes, very disappointing.  I couldn't believe you guys
>>>>>>> were tweeting it to make people read that piece of
>>>>>>> rubbish.  I'm sorry you had to be the poster-boy for
>>>>>>> "but I did get a second viewpoint" journalism.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Bob Jonkman
>>>>>>> <bjonkman at sobac.com <mailto:bjonkman at sobac.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I get quoted in today's column by Luisa D'Amato:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
> http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/6743051-d-amato-despite-brexit-we-need-a-referendum-on-electoral-reform/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
> 
D’Amato: Despite Brexit, we need a referendum on electoral
>>>>>>> reform
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bob Jonkman, co-chair of the Waterloo Region chapter of
>>>>>>> Fair Vote Canada, says there is barely time to put a
>>>>>>> new system in place, let alone ask people what they
>>>>>>> think of it
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ms. D'Amato and I had a 20 minute conversation yesterday
>>>>>> and that's only a brief and under-representative quote of
>>>>>> what we spoke about. Among other things, I expressed my
>>>>>> opinion that a referendum on Electoral Reform isn't
>>>>>> necessary because:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1) Parliament (and provincial legislatures) may change
>>>>>> the electoral system with a vote in parliament, as they
>>>>>> have done for every other electoral reform issue such as
>>>>>> giving the vote to women
>>>>>>>> (1917-1918) or
>>>>>> First Nations people (1960!)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 2) A referendum on electoral reform is not a
>>>>>> constitutional requirement. The only issue that affects
>>>>>> consitutionality is seat allocation to the provinces, and
>>>>>> that requirement is easily met by
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>> extending electoral boundaries across provincial lines.
>>>>>> (We didn't discuss it, but there have been many electoral
>>>>>> boundary changes, notably before the 2015 election, which
>>>>>> didn't go to a referendum and were perfectly
>>>>>> constitutional)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 3) That an effective and equal vote is a right, and that
>>>>>> the First-Past-The-Post system violates that right, and
>>>>>> rights issues are never decided by referenda.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I spoke of the rarity of referenda in Canada, that the
>>>>>> only national referenda have been on issues like
>>>>>> prohibition (I thought that was in the 1930's, but it was
>>>>>> in 1898), and the separation of Quebec (1992). Ms.
>>>>>> D'Amato pointed out that we had a municipal referendum on
>>>>>> fluoridation, and pointed out the many provincial 
>>>>>> referenda on electoral reform.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We talked about the 2007 referendum in Ontario -- that
>>>>>> example is a great reason to avoid referenda on these
>>>>>> topics. Although the
>>>>>>>> McGuinty
>>>>>> Liberals made it an election promise in 2003, the
>>>>>> Citizens' Assembly wasn't formed until 2006, leaving them
>>>>>> only six months to become experts in voting systems and
>>>>>> make a recommendation. Elections
>>>>>>>> Ontario
>>>>>> did not have enough information documents available; Fair
>>>>>> Vote Waterloo members went door-to-door, and we ran out.
>>>>>> Elections Ontario themselves were prohibited from giving
>>>>>> out information on the
>>>>>>>> proposed
>>>>>> voting system, and when voters went to the polls in
>>>>>> October most didn't even know there was a referendum on.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I expressed dismay that it took the Federal Liberal
>>>>>> government eight months to form the current All-party
>>>>>> Parliamentary Committee, that
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Committee's proposal is due on 1 December (and
>>>>>> consultations need to wrapped up by 1 October), that the
>>>>>> time it would take to move a bill through parliament
>>>>>> could be as much as year, what with debate, multiple
>>>>>> reading, and senate approval, and that Elections Canada
>>>>>> will need a year to re-tool for a new electoral system.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And that whole conversation was distilled down to the
>>>>>> one sentence.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --Bob.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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