[fvc-wat-disc] Liberals on PR ~ Bardish Chagger & Raj Saini

Laurel L. Russwurm laurel.l at russwurm.org
Sat Mar 18 20:07:33 EDT 2017


Dear Stu:

Just thought you ought to know I do not speak for FVC... but because I 
take photos &tc and use the internet, I've been given the keys to the 
online platforms, but I am very careful not to express my ideas as Fair 
Votes.  In fact, although our objectives are similar, not only am I not 
now, nor ever have been (and likely never will be) a member, I don't 
always agree with FVC official or unofficial policy, nor do I always 
agree with all Fair Voters.

Nor have I ever been a Liberal, back in the days when I was still a 
happily unaligned voter, I joined as a supporter to vote against Mr. 
Trudeau as leader because even then the only policy he articulated at 
that point was strong AV support, and later actually paid them $10 to 
support a Liberal PR supporter in the candidacy race for my riding (she 
didn't win).  Whether aligned or not, I very much oppose strategic 
voting, because I believe it has helped prop up our feudal FPTP for 
decades.

I also wanted to point out all the electoral reform media I produce is 
either dedicated to the public domain or released with a Creative 
Commons license so anyone who wishes to can use it or rework it for 
their own purposes.

I do agree diversity is good, that's why I support PR:  I think every 
voice deserves representation, even those i disagree with.

Regards,
Laurel


On 03/18/2017 01:35 PM, STUART CHANDLER wrote:
> Thanks Laurel.
> Thanks for your considered opinion.
> Unfortunately, it seems we are arguing apples and oranges.
> I apologize if I was not clear enough in stating that my approach was 
> purely from an individual perspective - definitely not an 
> organizational one. ( I would never speak "on behalf of FVC". I rely 
> on folks like you and Bob to do that.)
> However, those of us who may support and appreciate the work of FVC‎ 
> are individuals as well, and capable of a diversity of thought and 
> action. (You know, much like we might hope from for those who count 
> themselves among the Liberal fold!)
> As JT loves to say, "We succeed, not in spite of our diversity, but 
> because of it.". And we either believe that, or we don't. (At this 
> point, it seems JT is not believing his own rhetoric when it comes to 
> ER. What a shame! Literally.)
> So, it seems that your response to my suggestion ‎came from an 
> organizational perspective (eg: "....making threats that we will 
> prevent anyone from being re-elected."), but also from a personal 
> perspective.  Naturally, you are interested in influencing how others 
> in our midst think (as you mailed your response to the FV Thinkers 
> Listserve, even though I had deliberately sent my email to only you, 
> Bob, and Sharon, and had explained why I did so).
>
> Unfortunately, I've been quite busy, and lack the time to expand 
> further now, except to emphasize the point that if FVC‎, plus all the 
> individuals connected with it, even tangentially,  took only one 
> approach to this matter we would lose the advantage of the strength 
> that any group of people has by virtue of its diversity.   Much like 
> the sage financial advice: "it's important to diversify".
>
> I have o‎ther concerns with your advice, but will need to explain them 
> at another time.
>
> With continued respect.
>
> Stu Chandler
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
> *From: *Laurel L. Russwurm
> *Sent: *Thursday, March 16, 2017 5:34 PM
> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Liberals on PR ~ Bardish Chagger & Raj Saini
>
>
> Dear Stuart:
>
> I'm glad you like the videos, and the reason I've produced them is to 
> make it easier to hold our elected MPs to account.
>
> That said, I am uncomfortable with the idea of making threats that we 
> will prevent anyone from being re-elected.  Among other things, that 
> is one reason those who achieve power via FPTP want to keep it... when 
> our votes don't count it is really tough to do.  That's what happened 
> in 2015 and we are clearly no better off.  [Say next time we elect the 
> NDP... and then they don't do PR... then after that, it will be the 
> Conservatives turn again?  This dance must stop.  Public opinion is 
> our friend, and it is building.  Trudeau pulled the plug because it is 
> growing.]
>
> In my experience it is always better to enlist support than have a 
> negative confrontation and make an enemy.  I have an idea Bardish is 
> aware of the videos, and would no doubt prefer them to go away.  They 
> are already public and getting watched and shared.  By all means, when 
> you call oor write or tweet to her, mention you've just seen one of 
> them and been reminded how ardently she supported  the pivotal PR 
> promise in the election. Tell her how disappointed you are that she's 
> let you down.
>
> The way to apply positive pressure is to make them count by helping 
> them spread.  Share them and other PR videos and keep sharing them.  
> If every one who wants PR shared 5 pro-PR things with their social 
> network every day, we will keep the momentum building.
>
> I understand people worry that if they share too much political stuff 
> they will alienate their family and friends, but unless that is all 
> you ever post, that is not likely. Among other things, both Facebook 
> and Twitter social networks limit how much of what we post gets shared 
> to our friend's timelines, so even if you share 5 things, most of them 
> won't be seen by most of your friends and family.
>
> Keeping this alive and growing can change Liberal Policy. Better they 
> figure this out now while there is still time to have PR for 2019.
>
> There is a lot more out there besides Fair Vote stuff --> 
> http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/resources/
>
> I've been writing articles [ https://whoacanada.wordpress.com/ ] and 
> making graphics  [ 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/laurelrusswurm/albums/] as well as 
> videos [https://www.youtube.com/user/LaurelRusswurm/videos] for well 
> over a year, but there is*a lot more* out there... search Google or 
> YouTube or Facebook or Twitter or Flickr or Tumblr anywhere you go 
> online for "Proportional Representation" or "Electoral Reform"
>
> There is a great new February 11th video from Toronto here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9FoyOIi3q0
>
> Share, and share some more.  Educate people who don't know, encourage 
> everyone you know to keep calling & visiting Bardish and all the rest.
>
> The Dutch election came out well because they have PR.   Their Trump 
> earned only the support he deserved (and none of the other parties 
> will ever make a coalition with him)
>
> There is also a growing push for PR in the UK (thanks to UKIP) and USA 
> (Trump) ... it isn't just here, it's everywhere, and that helps us 
> too.  We are on the right track.
>
> Regards,
> Laurel
>
>
>
> On 03/16/2017 08:14 AM, STUART CHANDLER wrote:
>> Thanks so much, Laurel.
>> These videos are dy-no-mite!
>> To see Chagger repeat, over, and over again her commitment to ER, and 
>> making every vote equal, and effective. And promise legislation 
>> within 18 months.
>> I'm thinking that, particularly considering the importance of her 
>> position, there may be something to be gained if some of her 
>> constituents put her on notice that they possess the videos, and will 
>> use them extensively in 2019 to unseat her. If she was led to believe 
>> the threat was serious enough (eg: "We have formed a group, and are 
>> building a fund to pay for the anti-Chagger, anti-liar campaign. We 
>> promise that 2015 will be the last time you get elected!"), AND THAT 
>> HER ONLY WAY OUT would be to get ER back on the Liberal agenda (along 
>> with an apology stating that there was more support for ER than they 
>> thought), it might be enough to motivate her. It can be added that we 
>> (it'd be good to come up with a catchy name for the group, partly so 
>> it is not conflated with Fair Vote) are working on supporting similar 
>> groups in other ridings. (in fact, it would be good to indicate that 
>> this idea came from another group in another Liberal-held riding)
>> Without such serious pressure tactics, I don't think there's a chance 
>> Cheers.
>> Stu.
>> ‎PS: I'm just sending this to 3 of you to make sure of no leaks.
>>
>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>> *From: *Laurel L. Russwurm
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, March 15, 2017 2:03 AM
>> *To: *fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Liberals on PR ~ Bardish Chagger & Raj 
>> Saini
>>
>>
>> Videos can only go viral if people share them.
>>
>> Bardish has not done what she personally promised re PR, not even 
>> close.  Raj either.  And we have video on both you can watch before 
>> talking to your MP.
>>
>> I've just posted another soundbite from the 2015 All Candidates 
>> Meeting (1 minute video)
>>
>> PR4Canada: Bardish Chagger ~ Representation
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piEsxsekJ6I
>>
>> Bardish Chagger: 4 Questions
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abUOn9pi5Lc
>>
>> and
>>
>> Bardish Chagger: an Electoral System based on the Principle of 
>> Fairness (just under 5 minutes)
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE6lyNJrl6U&t=5s There's also
>>
>> Raj Saini on Proportional Representation
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlAUTMXRPnc&t=449s
>>
>> The video from the three FVC All Candidates meetings all the 
>> candidates expressed support for PR, all were on the same side.  
>> (Probably part of why there were no such events in Cambridge or Kit-SH>
>>
>> Bardish talks about how interested people were at the door, how 
>> crowded in the event.
>> Bardish and Raj both talk about the consultation, how it should be 
>> done.  They did not do it that way.
>>
>> Every LPC MP in WR was asked to make sure the ERRE Committee came 
>> here.  It did not.
>>
>> Monsef did, and all 4 LPC MPs used that as their consultation.  It 
>> should have been as well as, not instead of.
>>
>> There was little or no advertising done for Monsef, all the dates 
>> were last minute, so people couldn't plan.
>>
>> The LPC did NOT do a good job of consulting.  Every LPC MP needed to 
>> host at LEAST one (better more) consultation events.
>>
>> Blaming the failure of the consultation on Canadians is bushwah.
>>
>> Share the videos.  They can still have PR in place in time if they 
>> move fast.  If not, it is important that people are informed before 
>> the next election, and we really want them to remember this, so share 
>> the videos :)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Laurel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 03/12/2017 10:21 PM, Donald Fraser wrote:
>>> well done, Martha
>>>
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 22:15, STUART CHANDLER <stuchandler43 at gmail.com 
>>> <mailto:stuchandler43 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Thanks Martha.
>>>     Great to hear your points & experience with Bardish.
>>>     ‎I can appreciate that you'd be frustrated with someone claiming
>>>     commitment to electoral reform, yet not pursuing it " for the
>>>     greater good" of all Canadians. I'm certain that anyone so
>>>     committed would in fact be convinced that the greater good of
>>>     all would be served by proceding with ER.
>>>     As it was she who called you, she'd make sur she had all her
>>>     rhetoric in order before picking up the phone. Hard to deal with
>>>     that level of preperation.
>>>     Nice work. And thanks again.
>>>     Best regards.
>>>     Stu.
>>>
>>>     Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>>>       Original Message
>>>     From: Martha Lauzon
>>>     Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 4:39 PM
>>>     To: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>>     Reply To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>     Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] Phone convo with Bardish Chagger
>>>
>>>     Hi all,
>>>
>>>     I don't write in much here, just tend to lurk (and take action
>>>     where appropriate--e.g., pestering Bardish)
>>>
>>>     Bardish Chagger just called me to chat about electoral reform. A
>>>     lot of what she was saying was basically talking points, i.e.,
>>>     we need to govern for all Canadians, not just people like you &
>>>     me who are knowledgeable. Well, yes, but if you see a problem
>>>     with a lack of knowledge, perhaps the government should launch
>>>     an education campaign? She claims that's what the new bill C33
>>>     does, which I was skeptical about, but since I haven't read the
>>>     bill, I wasn't able to speak to the point. I did mention the new
>>>     Local PR initiative taking off in Guelph, whose name escaped me
>>>     on the phone, but which turns up with a quick Google search. She
>>>     said she would look into it, and just in case she gets stuck,
>>>     I'm about to send her a link. Because I'm helpful like that.
>>>
>>>     I'm concerned because she says that many constituents approached
>>>     her after the town halls, saying that they had felt that FVC
>>>     folks were very dismissive of opinions that run counter to ours,
>>>     and that instead of being brought in to the conversation, they
>>>     felt driven away. Assuming that she's not making this up,
>>>     perhaps this is something we could work on, to be more welcoming
>>>     and information-dispensing, and a little less judgy. Many of us
>>>     have been working on this for years and years, and it can be
>>>     easy to get impatient with people who are just hearing about PR
>>>     for the first time, especially if they don't see the light right
>>>     out of the gate.
>>>
>>>     She also claimed that the Liberals had conducted a poll, and
>>>     while most people they talked to advocated reform, once they
>>>     asked people what system they preferred, FPTP came out the
>>>     winner. I asked her if this survey and its results were public,
>>>     because I'd LOVE to see the actual questions that were asked,
>>>     but she dodged that one.
>>>
>>>     She also had the nerve to champion the mydemocracy.ca
>>>     <http://mydemocracy.ca> survey. I may be reading more into her
>>>     explanation than she intended, but what I heard was that they
>>>     deliberately didn't ask any questions related to electoral
>>>     reform because people aren't educated. I tried to explain to her
>>>     that that was BS because they could have constructed questions
>>>     that addressed PR without using any of the PR jargon, but she
>>>     stuck to her guns that what they really cared about was people's
>>>     values (and "hard working people everywhere").
>>>
>>>     So, all in all, a little frustrating. She insisted several times
>>>     that she herself was committed to electoral reform but now that
>>>     they're governing for all Canadians they need to set personal
>>>     preferences aside in favour of the greater good yada yada yada.
>>>     I *am* impressed, because this is the first time in my 40-odd
>>>     years that my MP has chosen to call me to address issues that
>>>     I've contacted them about. Usually, I'm doing well with a polite
>>>     written PFO.
>>>
>>>     Y'all may be receiving your own phone calls soon.
>>>
>>>     Cheers,‎
>>>     Martha
>>>
>>>
>>>     ________________________________________
>>>     From: fvc-wat-disc [fvc-wat-disc-bounces at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc-bounces at listserv.thinkers.org>] on behalf
>>>     of fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>>     [fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org>]
>>>     Sent: March 12, 2017 12:00 PM
>>>     To: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>>     Subject: fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol 96, Issue 11
>>>
>>>     Send fvc-wat-disc mailing list submissions to
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>>>
>>>     Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>     1. Re: been monitoring Chagger-Tweet (STUART CHANDLER)
>>>     2. Re: Chagger tweets (fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol 96, Issue 10)
>>>     (Eleanor Grant)
>>>
>>>
>>>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>     Message: 1
>>>     Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 19:02:06 -0500
>>>     From: STUART CHANDLER <stuchandler43 at gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:stuchandler43 at gmail.com>>
>>>     To: Donald Fraser <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>>, FVC Waterloo
>>>     Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>>
>>>     Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] been monitoring Chagger-Tweet
>>>     Message-ID: <20170312000206.6107221.43418.12964 at gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:20170312000206.6107221.43418.12964 at gmail.com>>
>>>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
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>>>
>>>     ------------------------------
>>>
>>>     Message: 2
>>>     Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 21:31:55 -0500
>>>     From: Eleanor Grant <eleanor7000 at gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:eleanor7000 at gmail.com>>
>>>     To: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>>     Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Chagger tweets (fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol
>>>     96, Issue 10)
>>>     Message-ID:
>>>     <CAEYE8EB4=WJ0Ac_Xn3zsryTdGLzJu67SesEy_d7quwwt8z0V8w at mail.gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:WJ0Ac_Xn3zsryTdGLzJu67SesEy_d7quwwt8z0V8w at mail.gmail.com>>
>>>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>>     Donald, what's your Twitter handle?
>>>     Follow me @eleanor70001 .
>>>
>>>
>>>     On 11 Mar 2017 18:13,
>>>     <fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     > Send fvc-wat-disc mailing list submissions to
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>>>     > http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_
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>>>     >
>>>     > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>>     he list at
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>>>     > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>>>     specific
>>>     > than "Re: Contents of fvc-wat-disc digest..."
>>>     >
>>>     > Today's Topics:
>>>     >
>>>     > 1. been monitoring Chagger-Tweet (Donald Fraser)
>>>     > 2. Re: been monitoring Chagger-Tweet (Donald Fraser)
>>>     > 3. Re: been monitoring Chagger-Tweet (Jon Bathmaker)
>>>     >
>>>     >
>>>     > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>     > From: Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:donaldafraser at gmail.com>>
>>>     > To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>     <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>>
>>>     > Cc:
>>>     > Bcc:
>>>     > Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 17:45:35 -0500
>>>     > Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] been monitoring Chagger-Tweet
>>>     > not much substance ... mostly meet & greets ... social events
>>>     ... so far
>>>     > nothing about which I could tell her "it would go better with
>>>     PR". (I have
>>>     > a lot better luck with Trump-Tweet ... lots of ammunition there!)
>>>     >
>>>     > cheers,
>>>     > Don
>>>     >
>>>     >
>>>     > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>     > From: Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:donaldafraser at gmail.com>>
>>>     > To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>     <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>>
>>>     > Cc:
>>>     > Bcc:
>>>     > Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 17:58:48 -0500
>>>     > Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] been monitoring Chagger-Tweet
>>>     > NO sooner did I speak when she gave me an opportunity!
>>>     >
>>>     > On 11 March 2017 at 17:45, Donald Fraser
>>>     <donaldafraser at gmail.com <mailto:donaldafraser at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>     >
>>>     >> not much substance ... mostly meet & greets ... social events
>>>     ... so far
>>>     >> nothing about which I could tell her "it would go better with
>>>     PR". (I have
>>>     >> a lot better luck with Trump-Tweet ... lots of ammunition there!)
>>>     >>
>>>     >> cheers,
>>>     >> Don
>>>     >>
>>>     >
>>>     >
>>>     >
>>>     > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>     > From: Jon Bathmaker <jon.bathmaker at gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:jon.bathmaker at gmail.com>>
>>>     > To: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>     <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>>     > Cc:
>>>     > Bcc:
>>>     > Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 18:13:02 -0500
>>>     > Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] been monitoring Chagger-Tweet
>>>     >
>>>     > Good work Don!
>>>     >
>>>     > Best,
>>>     > Jon
>>>     > On 3/11/2017 5:58 PM, Donald Fraser wrote:
>>>     >
>>>     > NO sooner did I speak when she gave me an opportunity!
>>>     >
>>>     > On 11 March 2017 at 17:45, Donald Fraser
>>>     <donaldafraser at gmail.com <mailto:donaldafraser at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>     >
>>>     >> not much substance ... mostly meet & greets ... social events
>>>     ... so far
>>>     >> nothing about which I could tell her "it would go better with
>>>     PR". (I have
>>>     >> a lot better luck with Trump-Tweet ... lots of ammunition there!)
>>>     >>
>>>     >> cheers,
>>>     >> Don
>>>     >>
>>>     >
>>>     >
>>>     >
>>>     > _______________________________________________
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>> ♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/>*  ♦ 
>> *Libreleft Books* <http://libreleft.com>  ♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm's 
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>
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> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/>*  ♦ 
> *Libreleft Books* <http://libreleft.com>  ♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm's Free 
> Culture Blog <https://laurelrusswurm.wordpress.com/>*  ♦ *Libreleft 
> Pictures* 
> <https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL66aOelRZ1qtZ49PbicKRQC-OgAXPUhNz>  
> ♦ *Whoa!Canada <https://whoacanada.wordpress.com/>* ♦ *visual laurel* 
> <http://laurelrusswurm.tumblr.com/>   ♦ *on Flickr 
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/laurelrusswurm/albums/>* ♦
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-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/>*  ♦ 
*Libreleft Books* <http://libreleft.com> ♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm's Free 
Culture Blog <https://laurelrusswurm.wordpress.com/>*  ♦ *Libreleft 
Pictures* 
<https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL66aOelRZ1qtZ49PbicKRQC-OgAXPUhNz>  
♦ *Whoa!Canada <https://whoacanada.wordpress.com/>* ♦ *visual laurel* 
<http://laurelrusswurm.tumblr.com/>   ♦ *on Flickr 
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/laurelrusswurm/albums/>*  ♦
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