[fvc-wat-disc] Liberals on PR ~ Bardish Chagger & Raj Saini
Laurel L. Russwurm
laurel.l at russwurm.org
Sat Mar 18 20:07:33 EDT 2017
Dear Stu:
Just thought you ought to know I do not speak for FVC... but because I
take photos &tc and use the internet, I've been given the keys to the
online platforms, but I am very careful not to express my ideas as Fair
Votes. In fact, although our objectives are similar, not only am I not
now, nor ever have been (and likely never will be) a member, I don't
always agree with FVC official or unofficial policy, nor do I always
agree with all Fair Voters.
Nor have I ever been a Liberal, back in the days when I was still a
happily unaligned voter, I joined as a supporter to vote against Mr.
Trudeau as leader because even then the only policy he articulated at
that point was strong AV support, and later actually paid them $10 to
support a Liberal PR supporter in the candidacy race for my riding (she
didn't win). Whether aligned or not, I very much oppose strategic
voting, because I believe it has helped prop up our feudal FPTP for
decades.
I also wanted to point out all the electoral reform media I produce is
either dedicated to the public domain or released with a Creative
Commons license so anyone who wishes to can use it or rework it for
their own purposes.
I do agree diversity is good, that's why I support PR: I think every
voice deserves representation, even those i disagree with.
Regards,
Laurel
On 03/18/2017 01:35 PM, STUART CHANDLER wrote:
> Thanks Laurel.
> Thanks for your considered opinion.
> Unfortunately, it seems we are arguing apples and oranges.
> I apologize if I was not clear enough in stating that my approach was
> purely from an individual perspective - definitely not an
> organizational one. ( I would never speak "on behalf of FVC". I rely
> on folks like you and Bob to do that.)
> However, those of us who may support and appreciate the work of FVC
> are individuals as well, and capable of a diversity of thought and
> action. (You know, much like we might hope from for those who count
> themselves among the Liberal fold!)
> As JT loves to say, "We succeed, not in spite of our diversity, but
> because of it.". And we either believe that, or we don't. (At this
> point, it seems JT is not believing his own rhetoric when it comes to
> ER. What a shame! Literally.)
> So, it seems that your response to my suggestion came from an
> organizational perspective (eg: "....making threats that we will
> prevent anyone from being re-elected."), but also from a personal
> perspective. Naturally, you are interested in influencing how others
> in our midst think (as you mailed your response to the FV Thinkers
> Listserve, even though I had deliberately sent my email to only you,
> Bob, and Sharon, and had explained why I did so).
>
> Unfortunately, I've been quite busy, and lack the time to expand
> further now, except to emphasize the point that if FVC, plus all the
> individuals connected with it, even tangentially, took only one
> approach to this matter we would lose the advantage of the strength
> that any group of people has by virtue of its diversity. Much like
> the sage financial advice: "it's important to diversify".
>
> I have other concerns with your advice, but will need to explain them
> at another time.
>
> With continued respect.
>
> Stu Chandler
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
> *From: *Laurel L. Russwurm
> *Sent: *Thursday, March 16, 2017 5:34 PM
> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Liberals on PR ~ Bardish Chagger & Raj Saini
>
>
> Dear Stuart:
>
> I'm glad you like the videos, and the reason I've produced them is to
> make it easier to hold our elected MPs to account.
>
> That said, I am uncomfortable with the idea of making threats that we
> will prevent anyone from being re-elected. Among other things, that
> is one reason those who achieve power via FPTP want to keep it... when
> our votes don't count it is really tough to do. That's what happened
> in 2015 and we are clearly no better off. [Say next time we elect the
> NDP... and then they don't do PR... then after that, it will be the
> Conservatives turn again? This dance must stop. Public opinion is
> our friend, and it is building. Trudeau pulled the plug because it is
> growing.]
>
> In my experience it is always better to enlist support than have a
> negative confrontation and make an enemy. I have an idea Bardish is
> aware of the videos, and would no doubt prefer them to go away. They
> are already public and getting watched and shared. By all means, when
> you call oor write or tweet to her, mention you've just seen one of
> them and been reminded how ardently she supported the pivotal PR
> promise in the election. Tell her how disappointed you are that she's
> let you down.
>
> The way to apply positive pressure is to make them count by helping
> them spread. Share them and other PR videos and keep sharing them.
> If every one who wants PR shared 5 pro-PR things with their social
> network every day, we will keep the momentum building.
>
> I understand people worry that if they share too much political stuff
> they will alienate their family and friends, but unless that is all
> you ever post, that is not likely. Among other things, both Facebook
> and Twitter social networks limit how much of what we post gets shared
> to our friend's timelines, so even if you share 5 things, most of them
> won't be seen by most of your friends and family.
>
> Keeping this alive and growing can change Liberal Policy. Better they
> figure this out now while there is still time to have PR for 2019.
>
> There is a lot more out there besides Fair Vote stuff -->
> http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/resources/
>
> I've been writing articles [ https://whoacanada.wordpress.com/ ] and
> making graphics [
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/laurelrusswurm/albums/] as well as
> videos [https://www.youtube.com/user/LaurelRusswurm/videos] for well
> over a year, but there is*a lot more* out there... search Google or
> YouTube or Facebook or Twitter or Flickr or Tumblr anywhere you go
> online for "Proportional Representation" or "Electoral Reform"
>
> There is a great new February 11th video from Toronto here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9FoyOIi3q0
>
> Share, and share some more. Educate people who don't know, encourage
> everyone you know to keep calling & visiting Bardish and all the rest.
>
> The Dutch election came out well because they have PR. Their Trump
> earned only the support he deserved (and none of the other parties
> will ever make a coalition with him)
>
> There is also a growing push for PR in the UK (thanks to UKIP) and USA
> (Trump) ... it isn't just here, it's everywhere, and that helps us
> too. We are on the right track.
>
> Regards,
> Laurel
>
>
>
> On 03/16/2017 08:14 AM, STUART CHANDLER wrote:
>> Thanks so much, Laurel.
>> These videos are dy-no-mite!
>> To see Chagger repeat, over, and over again her commitment to ER, and
>> making every vote equal, and effective. And promise legislation
>> within 18 months.
>> I'm thinking that, particularly considering the importance of her
>> position, there may be something to be gained if some of her
>> constituents put her on notice that they possess the videos, and will
>> use them extensively in 2019 to unseat her. If she was led to believe
>> the threat was serious enough (eg: "We have formed a group, and are
>> building a fund to pay for the anti-Chagger, anti-liar campaign. We
>> promise that 2015 will be the last time you get elected!"), AND THAT
>> HER ONLY WAY OUT would be to get ER back on the Liberal agenda (along
>> with an apology stating that there was more support for ER than they
>> thought), it might be enough to motivate her. It can be added that we
>> (it'd be good to come up with a catchy name for the group, partly so
>> it is not conflated with Fair Vote) are working on supporting similar
>> groups in other ridings. (in fact, it would be good to indicate that
>> this idea came from another group in another Liberal-held riding)
>> Without such serious pressure tactics, I don't think there's a chance
>> Cheers.
>> Stu.
>> PS: I'm just sending this to 3 of you to make sure of no leaks.
>>
>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>> *From: *Laurel L. Russwurm
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, March 15, 2017 2:03 AM
>> *To: *fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Liberals on PR ~ Bardish Chagger & Raj
>> Saini
>>
>>
>> Videos can only go viral if people share them.
>>
>> Bardish has not done what she personally promised re PR, not even
>> close. Raj either. And we have video on both you can watch before
>> talking to your MP.
>>
>> I've just posted another soundbite from the 2015 All Candidates
>> Meeting (1 minute video)
>>
>> PR4Canada: Bardish Chagger ~ Representation
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piEsxsekJ6I
>>
>> Bardish Chagger: 4 Questions
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abUOn9pi5Lc
>>
>> and
>>
>> Bardish Chagger: an Electoral System based on the Principle of
>> Fairness (just under 5 minutes)
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE6lyNJrl6U&t=5s There's also
>>
>> Raj Saini on Proportional Representation
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlAUTMXRPnc&t=449s
>>
>> The video from the three FVC All Candidates meetings all the
>> candidates expressed support for PR, all were on the same side.
>> (Probably part of why there were no such events in Cambridge or Kit-SH>
>>
>> Bardish talks about how interested people were at the door, how
>> crowded in the event.
>> Bardish and Raj both talk about the consultation, how it should be
>> done. They did not do it that way.
>>
>> Every LPC MP in WR was asked to make sure the ERRE Committee came
>> here. It did not.
>>
>> Monsef did, and all 4 LPC MPs used that as their consultation. It
>> should have been as well as, not instead of.
>>
>> There was little or no advertising done for Monsef, all the dates
>> were last minute, so people couldn't plan.
>>
>> The LPC did NOT do a good job of consulting. Every LPC MP needed to
>> host at LEAST one (better more) consultation events.
>>
>> Blaming the failure of the consultation on Canadians is bushwah.
>>
>> Share the videos. They can still have PR in place in time if they
>> move fast. If not, it is important that people are informed before
>> the next election, and we really want them to remember this, so share
>> the videos :)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Laurel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 03/12/2017 10:21 PM, Donald Fraser wrote:
>>> well done, Martha
>>>
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 22:15, STUART CHANDLER <stuchandler43 at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:stuchandler43 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Martha.
>>> Great to hear your points & experience with Bardish.
>>> I can appreciate that you'd be frustrated with someone claiming
>>> commitment to electoral reform, yet not pursuing it " for the
>>> greater good" of all Canadians. I'm certain that anyone so
>>> committed would in fact be convinced that the greater good of
>>> all would be served by proceding with ER.
>>> As it was she who called you, she'd make sur she had all her
>>> rhetoric in order before picking up the phone. Hard to deal with
>>> that level of preperation.
>>> Nice work. And thanks again.
>>> Best regards.
>>> Stu.
>>>
>>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>>> Original Message
>>> From: Martha Lauzon
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 4:39 PM
>>> To: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>> Reply To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>> Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] Phone convo with Bardish Chagger
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I don't write in much here, just tend to lurk (and take action
>>> where appropriate--e.g., pestering Bardish)
>>>
>>> Bardish Chagger just called me to chat about electoral reform. A
>>> lot of what she was saying was basically talking points, i.e.,
>>> we need to govern for all Canadians, not just people like you &
>>> me who are knowledgeable. Well, yes, but if you see a problem
>>> with a lack of knowledge, perhaps the government should launch
>>> an education campaign? She claims that's what the new bill C33
>>> does, which I was skeptical about, but since I haven't read the
>>> bill, I wasn't able to speak to the point. I did mention the new
>>> Local PR initiative taking off in Guelph, whose name escaped me
>>> on the phone, but which turns up with a quick Google search. She
>>> said she would look into it, and just in case she gets stuck,
>>> I'm about to send her a link. Because I'm helpful like that.
>>>
>>> I'm concerned because she says that many constituents approached
>>> her after the town halls, saying that they had felt that FVC
>>> folks were very dismissive of opinions that run counter to ours,
>>> and that instead of being brought in to the conversation, they
>>> felt driven away. Assuming that she's not making this up,
>>> perhaps this is something we could work on, to be more welcoming
>>> and information-dispensing, and a little less judgy. Many of us
>>> have been working on this for years and years, and it can be
>>> easy to get impatient with people who are just hearing about PR
>>> for the first time, especially if they don't see the light right
>>> out of the gate.
>>>
>>> She also claimed that the Liberals had conducted a poll, and
>>> while most people they talked to advocated reform, once they
>>> asked people what system they preferred, FPTP came out the
>>> winner. I asked her if this survey and its results were public,
>>> because I'd LOVE to see the actual questions that were asked,
>>> but she dodged that one.
>>>
>>> She also had the nerve to champion the mydemocracy.ca
>>> <http://mydemocracy.ca> survey. I may be reading more into her
>>> explanation than she intended, but what I heard was that they
>>> deliberately didn't ask any questions related to electoral
>>> reform because people aren't educated. I tried to explain to her
>>> that that was BS because they could have constructed questions
>>> that addressed PR without using any of the PR jargon, but she
>>> stuck to her guns that what they really cared about was people's
>>> values (and "hard working people everywhere").
>>>
>>> So, all in all, a little frustrating. She insisted several times
>>> that she herself was committed to electoral reform but now that
>>> they're governing for all Canadians they need to set personal
>>> preferences aside in favour of the greater good yada yada yada.
>>> I *am* impressed, because this is the first time in my 40-odd
>>> years that my MP has chosen to call me to address issues that
>>> I've contacted them about. Usually, I'm doing well with a polite
>>> written PFO.
>>>
>>> Y'all may be receiving your own phone calls soon.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Martha
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: fvc-wat-disc [fvc-wat-disc-bounces at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc-bounces at listserv.thinkers.org>] on behalf
>>> of fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>> [fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org>]
>>> Sent: March 12, 2017 12:00 PM
>>> To: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>> Subject: fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol 96, Issue 11
>>>
>>> Send fvc-wat-disc mailing list submissions to
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: been monitoring Chagger-Tweet (STUART CHANDLER)
>>> 2. Re: Chagger tweets (fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol 96, Issue 10)
>>> (Eleanor Grant)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 19:02:06 -0500
>>> From: STUART CHANDLER <stuchandler43 at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:stuchandler43 at gmail.com>>
>>> To: Donald Fraser <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>>, FVC Waterloo
>>> Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] been monitoring Chagger-Tweet
>>> Message-ID: <20170312000206.6107221.43418.12964 at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:20170312000206.6107221.43418.12964 at gmail.com>>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 21:31:55 -0500
>>> From: Eleanor Grant <eleanor7000 at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:eleanor7000 at gmail.com>>
>>> To: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Chagger tweets (fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol
>>> 96, Issue 10)
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <CAEYE8EB4=WJ0Ac_Xn3zsryTdGLzJu67SesEy_d7quwwt8z0V8w at mail.gmail.com
>>> <mailto:WJ0Ac_Xn3zsryTdGLzJu67SesEy_d7quwwt8z0V8w at mail.gmail.com>>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Donald, what's your Twitter handle?
>>> Follow me @eleanor70001 .
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11 Mar 2017 18:13,
>>> <fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Send fvc-wat-disc mailing list submissions to
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>>> specific
>>> > than "Re: Contents of fvc-wat-disc digest..."
>>> >
>>> > Today's Topics:
>>> >
>>> > 1. been monitoring Chagger-Tweet (Donald Fraser)
>>> > 2. Re: been monitoring Chagger-Tweet (Donald Fraser)
>>> > 3. Re: been monitoring Chagger-Tweet (Jon Bathmaker)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> > From: Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:donaldafraser at gmail.com>>
>>> > To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>> <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>>
>>> > Cc:
>>> > Bcc:
>>> > Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 17:45:35 -0500
>>> > Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] been monitoring Chagger-Tweet
>>> > not much substance ... mostly meet & greets ... social events
>>> ... so far
>>> > nothing about which I could tell her "it would go better with
>>> PR". (I have
>>> > a lot better luck with Trump-Tweet ... lots of ammunition there!)
>>> >
>>> > cheers,
>>> > Don
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> > From: Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:donaldafraser at gmail.com>>
>>> > To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>> <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>>
>>> > Cc:
>>> > Bcc:
>>> > Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 17:58:48 -0500
>>> > Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] been monitoring Chagger-Tweet
>>> > NO sooner did I speak when she gave me an opportunity!
>>> >
>>> > On 11 March 2017 at 17:45, Donald Fraser
>>> <donaldafraser at gmail.com <mailto:donaldafraser at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> not much substance ... mostly meet & greets ... social events
>>> ... so far
>>> >> nothing about which I could tell her "it would go better with
>>> PR". (I have
>>> >> a lot better luck with Trump-Tweet ... lots of ammunition there!)
>>> >>
>>> >> cheers,
>>> >> Don
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> > From: Jon Bathmaker <jon.bathmaker at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:jon.bathmaker at gmail.com>>
>>> > To: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>> > Cc:
>>> > Bcc:
>>> > Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 18:13:02 -0500
>>> > Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] been monitoring Chagger-Tweet
>>> >
>>> > Good work Don!
>>> >
>>> > Best,
>>> > Jon
>>> > On 3/11/2017 5:58 PM, Donald Fraser wrote:
>>> >
>>> > NO sooner did I speak when she gave me an opportunity!
>>> >
>>> > On 11 March 2017 at 17:45, Donald Fraser
>>> <donaldafraser at gmail.com <mailto:donaldafraser at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> not much substance ... mostly meet & greets ... social events
>>> ... so far
>>> >> nothing about which I could tell her "it would go better with
>>> PR". (I have
>>> >> a lot better luck with Trump-Tweet ... lots of ammunition there!)
>>> >>
>>> >> cheers,
>>> >> Don
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/>* ♦
>> *Libreleft Books* <http://libreleft.com> ♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm's
>> Free Culture Blog <https://laurelrusswurm.wordpress.com/>* ♦
>> *Libreleft Pictures*
>> <https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL66aOelRZ1qtZ49PbicKRQC-OgAXPUhNz>
>> ♦ *Whoa!Canada <https://whoacanada.wordpress.com/>* ♦ *visual laurel*
>> <http://laurelrusswurm.tumblr.com/> ♦ *on Flickr
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/laurelrusswurm/albums/>* ♦
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> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/>* ♦
> *Libreleft Books* <http://libreleft.com> ♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm's Free
> Culture Blog <https://laurelrusswurm.wordpress.com/>* ♦ *Libreleft
> Pictures*
> <https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL66aOelRZ1qtZ49PbicKRQC-OgAXPUhNz>
> ♦ *Whoa!Canada <https://whoacanada.wordpress.com/>* ♦ *visual laurel*
> <http://laurelrusswurm.tumblr.com/> ♦ *on Flickr
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/laurelrusswurm/albums/>* ♦
>
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>
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♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/>* ♦
*Libreleft Books* <http://libreleft.com> ♦ *Laurel L. Russwurm's Free
Culture Blog <https://laurelrusswurm.wordpress.com/>* ♦ *Libreleft
Pictures*
<https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL66aOelRZ1qtZ49PbicKRQC-OgAXPUhNz>
♦ *Whoa!Canada <https://whoacanada.wordpress.com/>* ♦ *visual laurel*
<http://laurelrusswurm.tumblr.com/> ♦ *on Flickr
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/laurelrusswurm/albums/>* ♦
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