[fvc-wat-disc] Arguing for PR
Jay Judkowitz
judkowitz at gmail.com
Sat May 6 11:54:45 EDT 2017
Thanks everyone for all the insights. Glad I'm not thinking outlandish
thoughts. I hope I can contribute in some way.
As a side note, In Marwan's long and dismissive email, he suggested working
locally instead of nationally. Seems defeatist to me, but there might be
something to working locally *in addition* to nationally. Have we gotten
any indications how Kitchener, Waterloo, and Cambridge govenments think
about voting reform? London recently just chose ranked choice which is a
nice first step.
On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Welcome, Jay ... glad to have another warrior ... cheers, Don
>
> On 1 May 2017 at 14:25, <cdcampbell9 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It would be most credible coming from an expert who (as far as I know)
>> has not sought public office, like Professor Byron Becker. Bob Jonkman
>> would be construed to have ulterior, sneaky political motives.
>>
>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
>> *From: *cdcampbell9 at gmail.com
>> *Sent: *Monday, May 1, 2017 2:07 PM
>> *To: *fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org; Jennifer Ross; FVC Waterloo
>> Region Discussion
>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Arguing for PR
>>
>> At the Sunday afternoon meeting at St John's Kitchen, I said I thought
>> that Bardish thinks PR will make it harder for minority ethnic and
>> religious groups to win nominations and ridings. Bob said it would make it
>> easier. I replied, someone should tell that to , Raj, Marwan and her.
>>
>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
>> *From: *Dave Arthur
>> *Sent: *Monday, May 1, 2017 1:31 PM
>> *To: *Jennifer Ross; FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Arguing for PR
>>
>> Hi Jay and everyone.
>> We’re still hopeful that the campaigning and letter-writing will sway
>> enough Liberal MPs to vote to go with the ERRE recommendations at the end
>> of May.
>> It’s a long shot.
>> I have to believe most will vote the party line and with Justin’s
>> decision.
>> I think we all believe the Liberal promise was based on their vision that
>> the change would be to alternative vote/ranked ballot that would give them,
>> the centrist party, a huge advantage.
>> When that was rejected by ERRE witnesses and town hall meetings as
>> obviously self-serving, they looked for any way to avoid electoral reform.
>> Despite the fact that there was clear consensus for PR from witnesses and
>> Canadians who made themselves informed and attended the meetings, the
>> Liberals used the unfortunate fact that many Canadians were not interested,
>> were uninformed, or preferred our unfair system that gave their Liberal or
>> Conservative parties an advantage, to claim there was no consensus.
>> There is a reason Canada ranks low for voter turnout and for low
>> percentage of women in parliament (although it is showing some improvement).
>> Many of us have met with our local MPs.
>> I’ve met with Bardish twice and been very disappointed with her style of
>> engagement.
>> Chantal Hebert’s recent column in The Star hit it pretty well when she
>> said Bardish has perfected the art of giving unhelpful answers with a smile.
>> The responses to my presentation to her were defensive, completely
>> irrelevant and factually inaccurate.
>> When I mentioned that 90% of EU and OECD countries use PR, she said “We
>> shouldn’t change our system just because someone else does”.
>> When I mentioned that the Ontario Citizens’ Assembly recommended MMP in
>> the Ontario referendum ten years ago that lost, she said it was because
>> “the voices against the change did a better job than the voices for”.
>> This in spite of the fact that polls at the time showed 50% of Ontarians
>> didn’t know what the referendum was about and 70% didn’t know what MMP was.
>> This was in part due to the McGuinty government’s total failure in
>> publicizing the issue or educating Ontarians.
>> When I explained my great disappointment that they broke their promise
>> and that, unless they demonstrate continuation of working toward reforming
>> our voting system, I will not vote Liberal or campaign as I did with
>> Leadnow in the last election, she said “Is that a threat?”
>> It’s difficult committing to one party. The Conservatives are no longer
>> “progressive”.
>> The Liberals have not yet delivered.
>> The Chretien Liberals signed onto the Earth Summit’s Kyoto Protocol in
>> 1992 and then for 14 years did absolutely nothing.
>> It’s interesting that some years ago the Sierra Club under Elizabeth May
>> named Brian Mulroney Canada’s most environmental PM following the
>> international and successful Montreal Protocol banning CFCs.
>> With PR I believe Green support would jump considerably from the almost
>> 10% support they received in 2008 (which under FPTP won zero seats).
>> Anyway, let’s keep doing what we can to move electoral reform along.
>> Dave A
>>
>>
>> *From:* Anita Nickerson
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 1, 2017 12:19 AM
>> *To:* Jennifer Ross ; FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>> *Subject:* Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Arguing for PR
>>
>> Hi Jay! Please do keep engaging with your MP and ask other people to do
>> the same thing. On May 31 they can be heroes but to say they need a bit of
>> a push is an understatement.
>>
>> People are doing the opposite of walking away, I mean to say.
>>
>> After Harper won his majority, that day in 2011 - everyone knowing that
>> basically for four years there was no hope of anything happening - we had
>> thousands of emails to FVC with people wanting to get involved. When
>> something's unfair, when parties abuse their power, it makes people realize
>> something's seriously wrong.
>>
>> One thing with the election promise and then the ERRE consultations is
>> the government gave all our folks REAL HOPE - first they promised - and
>> many PR supporters voted or campaigned for them - then they told us to show
>> up here and here and here and we'll listen to you, all the while Trudeau
>> repeating they were committed.
>>
>> People* invested their time in this in good faith.* When you invest your
>> time in something, you get to care about it a bit more. People showed up at
>> the town hall, the ERRE consultation, the Minister's tour. They wrote
>> letters, they send long submissions to the ERRE committee on what they
>> wanted and why and talked about isn't it great that you are doing this
>> because they were told over and over that their feedback mattered.
>>
>> If the Liberals had just quietly walked away from their promise on
>> October 20, 2015, as most people expected them to do, as most governments
>> with a 39% majority would do, we wouldn't see what Jenn is talking about
>> now.
>>
>> But because Trudeau kept the game going so long and with such intensity,
>> a core of people really got personally *involved *so when Trudeau
>> suddenly pulled the plug he fired up a community that is now somewhere
>> between disgusted and furious at being used and lied to.
>>
>> A community with a *long *memory.
>>
>> Anita
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 11:55 PM, Jennifer Ross <2jennross at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, Jay. Welcome to the movement (and the country!)
>>>
>>> I am a Liberal. I have tried each of those arguments many times; they
>>> sure make sense to me, and they made some sense to my Liberal friends prior
>>> to around October of 2016. After all, Sharon and I only wrote the
>>> "important" part of Resolution 31 (the policy that brought about the
>>> election platform on Electoral Reform); we couldn't have passed it through
>>> the policy gauntlet by ourselves and without buy-in from the membership,
>>> and particularly from the caucus.
>>>
>>> But, in a telling reason why we need PR to end hyper-partisanship, most
>>> Liberal rank and file no longer want to hear it, and Liberal MPs will
>>> "engage" with you without actually paying any attention to you. In fact,
>>> Francis Scarpaleggia actually said, out loud and during a press conference
>>> "platform promises are just a way to engage with Canadians." That's not
>>> what I was doing when I was helping our Liberals win government, I can
>>> assure you! I was highlighting the *promise*.
>>>
>>> Oh, and non-engagement of Canadian citizenry translates to they don't
>>> want to change the voting system, not that they are so non-engaged they
>>> don't even know other options are available. Or an understanding of what
>>> we have now for that matter. Or they don't feel they know enough about the
>>> options that they should weigh in on the decision-making (which I think is
>>> the majority).
>>>
>>> Maybe hearing about it from someone new will be helpful, particularly if
>>> you have some lived experience or a different perspective to inform your
>>> conclusions. Telling the story as to why you've come to believe it, as it
>>> were.
>>>
>>> But, we don't give up because I'm the Treasurer of Fair Vote Canada, and
>>> am right now going through our membership list for reasons that aren't
>>> important to the discussion. And I am totally blown away by the number of
>>> members whose membership had lapsed and they renewed after December 1st
>>> (when the Report of the ERRE came down) and the new members who signed up
>>> after February 1st (when Justin Trudeau pulled the plug on electoral
>>> reform). People are doing the opposite of walking away, I mean to say.
>>>
>>> We even have two members who DIED and whose family is still paying their
>>> membership dues. That is how important this issue is to some. So for
>>> those dear friends as well as everyone still fighting for the cause, please
>>> do all of it. :)
>>>
>>> The Record is good and we get our fair share of letters these days, I
>>> think. Even better are the Township papers who actually support PR (which
>>> you'd think would be the other way around but there we are). But you need
>>> to be a rural person to be published by them, I think. Then there's the
>>> Waterloo Chronicle and the Kitchener Post, which we don't tend to
>>> concentrate on so they may be ripe for the picking. *We do have a
>>> letter writing group and I hope someone else tells you more about that.*
>>>
>>> Where are you from? Because if there is a diaspora in the Region also
>>> from that country or region, it would be most valuable to connect with them
>>> and offer a PR 101 course for Canada (don't worry, we have people who are
>>> experts to do it).
>>>
>>> Thanks so much for stepping on board!
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 11:17 PM, Jay Judkowitz <judkowitz at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fairvote folks,
>>>>
>>>> As someone new to the area and the country, I am wondering what
>>>> the best way is to argue the case for PR and where we should be arguing it.
>>>>
>>>> I have mailed my MP, Mr. Tabbara, and received a long form letter
>>>> in return that I'm sure most of you have seen (they did not even put my
>>>> name on it and called me "Diana"). I replied to his mail, but am not
>>>> anticipating a personalized engagement.
>>>>
>>>> Letters to the editor can get some visibility. What publications
>>>> would you suggest I write to?
>>>>
>>>> What about opposing organizations? Is there any group in
>>>> particular who it would be worthwhile to engage with to try and change
>>>> their mind through open and honest discourse?
>>>>
>>>> As for arguments that would work and would not work, I am trying
>>>> to put myself in the position of the Liberals since the Liberals are the
>>>> ones with the power to make or break PR right now. And, in that mindset,
>>>> there are three arguments that make sense to me.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Liberals have complete power now which is great, but it was only
>>>> a short time ago when they had no power. Conservatives ruled for 10 years
>>>> while they waited. Wouldn't they want some say all the time rather than no
>>>> say for a decade at a time.
>>>> 2. PR is a huge benefit to the party in the middle of a system with
>>>> 3 relatively popular parties. Even when they can not just dictate policy,
>>>> they can partner to the left or the right to make policy on any given
>>>> issue. It would seem that PR would benefit them the most of any party in
>>>> the long term.
>>>> 3. It's scary to let a party with 39% of the vote get 100% of the
>>>> power. Imagine a situation like the US. Let's say 15% of Canadians (and
>>>> I'm just making up that number) are really fed up with things and
>>>> vehemently support a right wing demagogue like Trump and that demagogue
>>>> manages to become the Conservative Party leader. Let's say at the same
>>>> time the Liberals and/or NDP falter due to scandal, a bad candidate, an
>>>> economic downturn, a terrorist attack, etc... In that situation, it's not
>>>> hard to imagine another 24% of Canadians holding their nose and voting for
>>>> the Conservatives led by that demagogue. They hit the 39% of the votes,
>>>> get the 51% of the seats and 100% of the power. This does not seem like a
>>>> likely event for any given election, but seems to be a certainty to happen
>>>> eventually (based on the math and probability, not based on any notion I
>>>> have of Canadian preferences). Wouldn't the Liberals want to do anything
>>>> to prevent this sort of scenario from being even possible? I know the
>>>> counter argument to this is that the right wing radicals would always be
>>>> represented in a PR scenario, but I'd rather that they always have small
>>>> representation and continually expose themselves than that they can lie in
>>>> wait and eventually win a stunning victory like what happened in the US in
>>>> November.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me know your thoughts on (a) where we should be making
>>>> the case and (b) your thoughts on the case I'm making.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in
>>> the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>>>
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