[fvc-wat-disc] Next Week's FVC-WR Meeting

Thu Oct 31 19:26:37 EDT 2019

Thank you for submitting a response to Hepburn's article Dave.

Sharon

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 6:39 PM Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:

> I just sent a second letter that responds more directly to Hepburn’s six
> reasons and suggested they could decide which to consider using.
>
> Here it is.
>
>
>
> Bob Hepburn puts forward “Six reasons to just say ‘No’ to electoral
> reform”. His reasons are inaccurate.
>
> Three provinces rejected ER in referendums. Polls showed many voters did
> not understand the issue or the proposed system or were influenced by
> misinformation.
>
> Hepburn refers to the chaos in countries like Israel, Italy and Australia
> (which does not use PR in their House of Representative) rather than the
> vast majority of the 90% of EU and OECD countries that use proportional
> representation successfully.
>
> The current and past prime ministers of New Zealand say PR resulted in the
> parties working together and with easier consensus.
>
> Fringe parties influence is avoided by a typical required threshold of 5%.
> The People’s Party received 2% of the votes and elected no one.
>
> Added proportional seats can be awarded in various ways from open or
> ranked lists or best runners-up.
>
> Currently Canada has one of the lowest voter turnouts that could only
> improve if every vote counts and strategic voting is no longer needed.
>
> David Arthur
> 32 Springdale Drive
> Kitchener, Ontario
> 519-579-3097
> arthurd23 at bell.net
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Corliss Olson <cpolson11 at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Thursday, October 31, 2019 5:50 PM
> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Next Week's FVC-WR Meeting
>
>
>
> HI Ellen! and Jim.
>
>
>
> Hope you're having a great time. We're sharing the rain, apparently.
>
>
>
> Corliss
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 5:22 PM Ellen Papenburg <sagittaep at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Good for you David.  It's a ridiculous archaic system!
>
>
>
> Applauding you from Iceland. No northern lights,  raindrops instead. But
> lots of other things to see.
>
> Ellen
>
> (via my android phone,  typos may occur)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 20:50 Dave Arthur, <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:
>
> Hepburn’s op-ed today in The Star and The Record is almost exactly the
> same crap he wrote two years ago when Justin shut down the process.
>
> I just sent the same letter I sent then to both The Star and The Record.
> Here it is.
>
>
>
> Hepburn’s Arguments Ill-Conceived
>
> Bob Hepburn says changing our voting system is a bad idea.  But 88% of the
> witnesses and briefs submitted by Canadians who have studied the issue say
> we need proportional representation, the system used by 90% of other
> developed democracies in the world.  What do those countries know that
> Hepburn doesn’t?  PR countries typically have more stable, longer lasting
> governments, better representation for all citizens, more cooperation and
> consensus, less partisan bitterness, longer range planning, less policy
> lurch, better voter turnouts, and sincere rather than strategic voting.
> Systems using multi-member or larger ridings with additional MPs give
> constituents more, not less contact with representatives.  Candidate lists
> adding proportional MPs can be open and ranked by voters adding more
> democracy, not less.  Canada is almost alone with its unfair version of
> democracy. Friends in countries with PR can’t believe we have stayed with a
> system where votes are not equal and too many do not count toward
> representation.
>
> David Arthur
>
> 32 Springdale Drive
>
> Kitchener, Ontario N2K1P9
>
> arthurd23 at bell.net
>
> 519-579-3097
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Stephanie Janzen-Martin <stephanie at janzenmartin.net>
> *Sent: *Thursday, October 31, 2019 8:39 AM
> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Next Week's FVC-WR Meeting
>
>
>
> I agree that PR is not partisan - but I can also see how people who don't
> want change might use that to shut down discussion.
>
>
>
> Discussions I've had with someone I know who works in a Liberal office on
> the Hill have been frustrating, to say the least. Basically "voting to
> avoid your worst case outcome should be good enough for you. Nobody else is
> trying to change the system, so why are you?"
>
>
>
> I suspect that he sees it as a highly partisan issue ie some parties want
> change and others don't and Greens would benefit from change so that's why
> they want it etc.
>
>
>
> I maintain a sliver of hope (from conversations with Bardish on this and
> other topics), that she could, eventually, be convinced to support PR - on
> the premise that all votes should count equally, and that she should have
> to earn votes (by being first choice, instead of by creating fear of a
> worse choice), and that cooperation with other parties (eg NDP and Green)
> is a positive for democracy.
>
>
>
> SJM
>
> ...................................
>
> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>
> Menno Adventures: sustainabledevelopmentresources.wordpress.com
>
> Support Independent School Funding:
> https://www.change.org/p/doug-ford-end-discriminatory-funding-for-catholic-public-private-schools-in-ontario
>
>
> Find me on LinkedIn.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 at 08:14, Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:
>
> I still don’t see that electoral reform is in any way partisan.
>
> It’s about our democracy.
>
> Is that off-limits with our elected MPs?
>
> Did everyone see Bob Hepburn’s op-ed in today’s Record/
>
>
> https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/9670223-six-reasons-to-just-say-no-to-electoral-reform/
>
> All six reasons to say no to ER are BS.
>
> Anyone want to respond?
>
> Dave A
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Catherine Campbell <cdcampbell9 at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 30, 2019 11:00 PM
> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Next Week's FVC-WR Meeting
>
>
>
> Catherine Fife said “partisan topics” couldn’t be discussed in her
> constituency office in the meeting that Jonathon and Don Fraser also
> attended a few months ago. You were at the only meeting I’ve attended with
> Bardish. You and I talked outside her outer door while we waited.
>
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2019, at 6:50 PM, Sharon Sommerville <
> sharonsommerville at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hi Cathe,
>
>
>
> I'm interested in the context of Bardish's comments about not discussing
> partisan politics in their constituency office.  Can you give more details?
>
>
>
> Three of us: Terry, Anita and myself met with Bardish to talk about
> Citizens' Assemblies prior to the election.  Not sure if addressing
> Citizens' Assemblies is partisan.  Addressing LPC issues in the
> constituency office would be partisan.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 4:41 PM Catherine Campbell <cdcampbell9 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Re: “Fair Vote and PR are (allegedly) non-partisan”: Hey, Dave, You are
> delegated to find nests of Conservatives and Liberals and put the statement
> to them. Wear a body cam.  Show us the video at the November meeting.
> Somebody should bring popcorn. Cathe Campbell
>
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2019, at 4:34 PM, Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:
>
> 
>
> But Fairvote and electoral reform are not partisan. Correct?
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Catherine Campbell <cdcampbell9 at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 29, 2019 4:27 PM
> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Next Week's FVC-WR Meeting
>
>
>
> I’m always on the side of activism. Whenever questions are posed to our
> group. “Shall we do X?”, my answer will always be,  “Yes!.” So yes to what
> Peter wrote, and yes to delegating to Anita the herding, corralling and
> sending off of pro-PR residents to meet with our newly re-elected and
> elected MPs outside their constituency offices. Catherine Fife and I recall
> Bardish Chagger telling our Fair Vote they couldn’t discuss partisan
> politics inside their constituency office. Hence, we follow the rules of
> engagement and meet on neutral territory.
>
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2019, at 10:11 PM, Cathy Scott <cathy.scottfree at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hi, Everyone
>
> Just a reminder that this Wednesday, Oct. 30,  is the last of the month
> and we will be meeting at the 'Hub' at 7:00pm, at St. John's church at Duke
> and Water Streets.
>
> Here are some points of discussion:
>
>    1. election results (I will bring The Record edition that lists the
>    results by riding).
>    2. strategies for getting electoral reform on the Liberal-NDP-Green
>    agenda
>
>
>    - visits to local Liberal MPs regarding establishing a Citizens'
>    Assembly
>    - should we accept Anita's offer to help us find and
>    coordinate volunteers for these visits or organize them ourselves,
>    independently of FVC?
>
>        3. website update - Jay recently found that our website is down
>
>
>
> See you then!
>
> Cathy
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 1:16 PM Cathy Scott <cathy.scottfree at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Sharon and Bob
>
> It occurred to me yesterday that this coming Wed. is the last of the
> month.
>
> Some of the agenda might be:
>
> - discussing the election results (I saved the Record edition that lists
> results riding by riding)
>
> - planning strategy for getting electoral reform on the Liberal-NDP-Green
> agenda;  and how they could do it before the next election, if we can show
> that it should be important to them.
>
>
>
> What do you think?
>
> Let me know if you want me to send out the announcement.
>
> Cathyr
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 11:15 AM Sharon Sommerville <
> sharonsommerville at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Bob,
>
>
>
> Bob, congratulations on moving the Green vote up nearly 4% in
> Brantford-Brant.  That represents a lot of work & that doesn't include
> travel time!
>
>
>
> You usually send out the notice for our monthly meeting.  Are you up to
> doing that or should Cathy/I send it out?
>
>
>
> It will be at the Hub.
>
>
>
> Warm regards,
>
> S.
>
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