[fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star

Thu Sep 30 17:19:06 EDT 2021

*Hi folks:*

*Here's my draft.  194 words.  Do I really need to trim it to 150?  Any
feedback?*

*Kevin.*

*First Past the Post does not protect us*

To the editor:

Bob Hepburn argues that Maxime Bernier’s PPC Party shows the folly of
Proportional Representation.  However, we’ve seen how close we came to
having Maxime Bernier as Prime Minister under First Past the Post.

Andrew Sheer beat Maxime Bernier by 50.95% to 49.05% on the final ballot of
the 2017 leadership vote.  A change of one percentage point could have
given us our very own Donald Trump-like figure leading that party.

In 2019, with First Past the Post and as little as 3% more of the vote, the
Conservatives would be able to win majority government with 100% of the
power.

So while PR could give a right-wing demagogue a voice in parliament, as
every party with sufficient support would have, first-past-the-post could
have made him Prime Minister with a minority of votes but a majority of
seats.

Let’s face it.  Any party with 5% support stands a chance of winning seats
in parliament in any system. With Proportional Representation, we have
greater party choice, better representation, and parties that need to work
together, and have less incentive to pull the plug and have elections like
the one we just had.  Far from folly, Bob.

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 4:31 PM Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:

> Thank you Anita. This is a very important topic.
>
> The linked article that Anita included is very much worth reading.
>
> We need to make the case that the results of our election in FPTP with low
> voter turnout, strategic voting, and all the covid polarization tinged with
> the populism that seems to be happening in many countries does not forecast
> what would happen with PR.
>
> In fact, PR would likely improve voter turnout, eliminate strategic
> voting, and reduce the effects of polarization and populism.
>
> Much of that would result from the increased cooperation of parties and a
> reduced toxic environment in our parliament.
>
> The Green vote would certainly increase to its past performance of more
> than the 5% threshold and mean considerably more than 2 seats.
>
> The PPC vote would very likely decrease and not meet the 5% threshold in
> addition to not likely electing anyone as was the case this time.
>
> One of the points I always make to people concerned about the fringe and
> single issue parties gaining influence is that in the last election, we had
> 14 such parties who together got less than 1% of the votes.
>
> We still have a job to do to counter the effect of the PPC.
>
> That could certainly include a letter to the Star.
>
> Dave A
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows
>
>
>
> *From: *Anita Nickerson <anitann88 at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Thursday, September 30, 2021 1:01 PM
> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star
>
>
>
> Please write to the Star!
>
> Yes, the PPC is costing us supporters.
>
>
>
> People are seeing those charts of 17-21 seats everywhere. It is costing us
> our own supporters - the many soft supporters, not the core long time
> people like you - and "the public". There is no doubt. I see it everywhere.
>
> I'm not really convinced that valiantly arguing that the PPC getting 21
> seats because they "deserve" it, that's "better democracy", when they were
> basically a one-issue party this election for people who think blocking
> hospitals is great, is a winner with the people we need to convince. We may
> be democratically and morally and technically correct, but we're only
> convincing ourselves by focusing on that.
>
> There is no great argument that can defeat an EMOTIONAL knee-jerk fear
> people have of "extremists in Parliament." Logic does not overcome emotion.
> We have been thoroughly defeated on that field before.
>
>
> *Nevertheless, do try to give people something else to think about and
> focus on! *
> Like yes, remind people that Bernier sat in cabinet and came with 1.7% of
> winning the Con leadership.
>
>
>
> Then these folks who are terrified of having a few isolated PPC in a
> corner of Parliament could have a Bernier running the country on 33% of the
> vote. That's a realistic fear - that we can address now with electoral
> reform now - or wait until it's staring us in the face, at which point it
> becomes much more difficult.
>
> A PR system for Canada WOULD NOT deliver the PPC 17 or 21 seats. Here is
> the reality:
>
> https://www.fairvote.ca/2021/09/22/simulationssmallparties/
>
>
>
> Milder numbers may take a dent of the fear, but won't remove it. For many
> people one PPC seat is too many and makes them think they'd rather stick
> with "the devil they know".
>
>
>
> The best tactic is likely to focus on the glaring flaws and consequences
> of our FPTP system for everyone.
>
>
>
> $600,000,000 early elections.
>
>
>
> Governments with 32.6% support who try to cooperate with others as little
> as humanly possible, when what we need are parties to cooperate to tackle
> issues that can only be solved by "all hands on deck" like climate change
> action.
>
>
>
> 25/25 seats in the City of Toronto going Lib and 14/14 in SK going Con -
> leaving NO VOICE for those with any other values.
>
>
>
> The vast majority who again elected nobody and the massive disengagement
> that is causing as voter turnout plummeted to 59%.
>
>
>
> Are we going to let fear of a handful of purple seats frighten us from
> solving those very big problems?
>
>
>
> *PLEASE WRITE TO THE STAR. So they see a LOT of people pushing back. *Much
> better than talking to each other on this list!
>
>
>
> Anita
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 7:08 AM stuchandler43 <stuchandler43 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> It doesn't take  a genius to see through Bob Hepburn's bombastic blather
> about how scary PR is. It is truly unfortunate that he uses his position of
> "journalist" as a bully pulpit to spread his stupidity with such perceived
> authority.
>
> His piece contains the information necessary to refute his useless fear of
> Max Bernier and the PPC, who he claims would create havic with the 25 seats
> they may have gained under PR.  25 seats out of 338 would only be of
> influence if the Conservatives got about 160 seats, and needed the PPC to
> pass legislation.  With all the polls of public opinion in Canada
> indicating that Canadians are overwhelmingly progressive politically, there
> is zero likelihood of that happening under PR. But it could happen under
> FPTP (!!!!!), which could allow the CPC to "win" enough seats with 30% of
> the votes (let's say) to gain a minority close enough to half that the few
> seats Bernier *might *get (in this hypothetical case) could allow them to
> form a coalition government capable of passing legislation.
>
> So, once again, PR proves it's better than FPTP since such a scenario is *much
> *less likely to happen with a PR Electoral system.
>
> Moreover, under FPTP, Justin has just been showing us how easy it is for
> his minority Liberal party to ignore most of what the NDP wants because
> he's been pretty sure the NDP will prop the Liberals up rather than risk
> forcing an election that might allow the Conservatives to gain power.
> (Only Justin was stupid enough to risk that fate!!)
>
> Ain't politics Fun?
>
>
>
> Cheerio
>
> Stu
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Galaxy
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
>
> From: Kevin Smith <kevedsmith at gmail.com>
>
> Date: 2021-09-30 2:13 a.m. (GMT-05:00)
>
> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>
> Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star
>
>
>
> Things have gotten quiet apparently from the progressives calling for PR,,
> since the PPC would have been the main benefactor of it in this last
> election.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2021/09/29/max-bernier-and-the-folly-of-electoral-reform.html
>
>
>
> Kevin.
>
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> --
>
> *Proportional representation delivers more of what YOU voted for!*
>
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>
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