<div dir="ltr">Hi Bob. FVC isn't advocating for a referendum of any kind - neither are the Greens, Liberals or NDP, or any advocacy group supporting us. We are advocating a process to bring citizens and experts to design a system together and implement it for 2019. To accomplish this in four years - a 12-18 month study/consultation, 3 votes, the Senate - we will need a four year stable government, and a serious commitment by the parties who are part of it. That's what we're pushing for. I think of 80 countries with proportional systems, one got it by referendum. <div><br></div><div>PEI is having referendum on electoral reform next spring. Their Liberal politicians have written a white paper where they are promoting something that is like AV on steroids, then having town halls to promote that option. </div><div><br></div><div>Allan - Bob's right - there's no need for more politicians or appetite for it. Who knows, we may see a one or two extra seats added to make sure voters in the far north have an MP closer to home with some models of PR - I don't know. But I can't imagine anyone proposing many more MPs. </div><div><br></div><div>Glad you are having a discussion group!</div><div><br></div><div>Anita</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Bob Jonkman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bjonkman@sobac.com" target="_blank">bjonkman@sobac.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
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Hi Allan: There are at least three easy ways to implement proportional<br>
representation, only one of which requires more politicians:<br>
<br>
1) Implement MMP and use the existing electoral district boundaries to<br>
elect a regional representative, then "top-up" with additional MPs to<br>
ensure parties are proportionally represented. As you note, having<br>
more politicians is not a popular choice.<br>
<br>
2) Implement MMP, and change the boundaries so that there are fewer<br>
electoral districts, but keep the displaced MPs for "top-up". This<br>
achieves proportionality, but makes regional representation for larger<br>
districts more difficult. Believe me, a riding like<br>
Kitchener-Conestoga is plenty big already.<br>
<br>
3) Implement STV using multi-member electoral districts created by<br>
combining several existing districts. For example, Waterloo Region has<br>
five electoral districts, and so could become one five-member<br>
district. The ranked ballot would list all 28 candidates, the top five<br>
chosen would the MPs, and the outcome would be mostly proportional.<br>
There's no increase in the number of politicians elected, and regional<br>
representation is maintained. However, the small parties and<br>
independents may not be well represented, unless many more (9 or 10)<br>
existing districts are combined. While that increases the degree of<br>
proportionality, it may reduce regional representation.<br>
<br>
There are many other ways to achieve proportionality, with various<br>
tradeoffs for regional representation, number of MPs, and how closely<br>
proportionality of votes matches the party seats. This is why I'd<br>
like to see a citizen's assembly created to evaluate the different<br>
systems, then have a referendum on a choice of two or three alternatives.<br>
<br>
- --Bob.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Bob Jonkman <<a href="mailto:bjonkman@sobac.com">bjonkman@sobac.com</a>> Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-519-635-9413" value="+15196359413">+1-519-635-9413</a><br>
Candidate for the Green Party of Canada in Kitchener-Conestoga<br>
<a href="https://bobjonkmangpc.ca/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bobjonkmangpc.ca/</a> mailto:<a href="mailto:bob.jonkman@greenparty.ca">bob.jonkman@greenparty.ca</a><br>
Vote for the person who will best represent you in your riding!<br>
<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 10/10/15 05:28 AM, Allan Grose wrote:<br>
> Hi Doug, I am interested in your proposal to discuss proportional<br>
> representation more deeply. My concern is that it might require<br>
> the addition of dozens of additional people to the legislature in<br>
> Ottawa. If each member of parliament costs the taxpayers a couple<br>
> of hundred thousand dollars a year, plus pensions after they<br>
> retire, perhaps the additional cost would be unjustified. What<br>
> other kind of electoral reform might be possible, I wonder. Allan<br>
> Grose lloyal8"<a href="http://gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">gmail.com</a><br>
><br>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 12:00 PM,<br>
> <<a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc-request@listserv.thinkers.org">fvc-wat-disc-request@listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>
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Message: 1<br>
>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:43:24 -0400 From: doug moen<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:doug@moens.org">doug@moens.org</a>> To: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a> Subject:<br>
>> [fvc-wat-disc] democratic and electoral reform Message-ID:<br>
>> <CAGV6i+PF2aBjs2d9kwcb7HRNS+E+prLNAEJn9bX1s08zwpe=<br>
>> <a href="mailto:4A@mail.gmail.com">4A@mail.gmail.com</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
>><br>
>> With the election coming up, I've done a lot of thinking about<br>
>> democratic and electoral reform in Canada, and I'm looking for a<br>
>> group of people to discuss this with. Fair Vote Waterloo looks<br>
>> like a good place to start. This group has no meetings scheduled,<br>
>> so is the mailing list the best place to have a conversation? I<br>
>> would also be interested in getting together with a group of<br>
>> people to have a discussion, either by organizing a meeting, or<br>
>> joining some group who is already doing this.<br>
>><br>
>> This group seems focused on proportional representation as the<br>
>> best way to reform the electoral system. Not sure how you all<br>
>> feel about the ranked ballot? I'm also more generally interested<br>
>> in democratic reform: ending the dictatorship of the PMO and<br>
>> giving power back to our elected representatives in the house of<br>
>> parliament.<br>
>><br>
>> Doug Moen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML<br>
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<div><div class="h5">>><br>
>> Message: 2 Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:01:44 -0400 From: Paul<br>
>> Schellenberg <<a href="mailto:pjschell@sympatico.ca">pjschell@sympatico.ca</a>> To: FVC Waterloo Region<br>
>> Discussion <<a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a>> Subject: Re:<br>
>> [fvc-wat-disc] democratic and electoral reform Message-ID:<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:337157FA-74BC-44F6-AE48-7C4B43995983@sympatico.ca">337157FA-74BC-44F6-AE48-7C4B43995983@sympatico.ca</a>> Content-Type:<br>
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>><br>
>> I would be interested in joining a group to discuss democratic<br>
>> and electoral reform.<br>
>><br>
>> I do not support ranked ballots.<br>
>><br>
>> Paul Schellenberg<br>
>><br>
>> On Oct 9, 2015, at 10:43 AM, doug moen <<a href="mailto:doug@moens.org">doug@moens.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> With the election coming up, I've done a lot of thinking about<br>
>> democratic and electoral reform in Canada, and I'm looking for a<br>
>> group of people to discuss this with. Fair Vote Waterloo looks<br>
>> like a good place to start. This group has no meetings scheduled,<br>
>> so is the mailing list the best place to have a conversation? I<br>
>> would also be interested in getting together with a group of<br>
>> people to have a discussion, either by organizing a meeting, or<br>
>> joining some group who is already doing this.<br>
>>><br>
>>> This group seems focused on proportional representation as the<br>
>>> best way<br>
>> to reform the electoral system. Not sure how you all feel about<br>
>> the ranked ballot? I'm also more generally interested in<br>
>> democratic reform: ending the dictatorship of the PMO and giving<br>
>> power back to our elected representatives in the house of<br>
>> parliament.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Doug Moen. _______________________________________________ This<br>
>>> is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:<br>
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