<head></head><body data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;"><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Can we plan a pot luck dinner at someone's backyard in July for Fair Vote (even Lead Now, ) people and their main squeeze? Sharon was determined that the Catherine Fife event was a drop in with No Food. Networking is crucial to everything in my opinion. More commitment, more fun. More conversation. Etc. Please get back to me this aft.</div> <p style="font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.</p> <table width="100%" style="background-color:white;border-spacing:0px;"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="2" style="font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <div id="_persistentHeader" style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; font-family: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate Pro'; font-size: 10pt;"> <div><b>From: </b>Bob Jonkman</div><div><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, June 30, 2016 2:48 PM</div><div><b>To: </b>FVC Waterloo Region Discussion</div><div><b>Reply To: </b>FVC Waterloo Region Discussion</div><div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [fvc-wat-disc] The Record column by Luisa D'Amato</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(186, 188, 209); border-top-width: 1pt; font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"></div><br><div id="_originalContent" style="">-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>Hash: SHA1<br><br>Hi Donald: I may disagree, but you may be right.<br><br>Please do submit your letter to The Record; if it gets published and<br>edited your text "as submitted" can be included on the Mirror page of<br>our media collection at http://fairvotewrc.ca/media . If it doesn't<br>get printed at all then you should post it as an article on the blog.<br> In fact, you should post it as an article on the blog regardless!<br><br>- --Bob<br><br><br>On 2016-06-30 08:25 AM, Donald Fraser wrote:<br>> It was at the top of this Email chain ... but here it is again<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Dear Editor,<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Re: Despite Brexit, we need a referendum on electoral reform_Luisa <br>> D’Amato_June 28,2016<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Philosophically the public should be consulted on this issue, but<br>> not without widespread public education about Proportional<br>> Representation (PR). First educate the public, then hold a vote.<br>> <br>> <br>> There have been three provincial referenda on PR in Canada<br>> (British Columbia May 17, 2005, Prince Edward Island Nov 28, 2005,<br>> Ontario Oct 10, 2007). All three failed, not because PR benefits<br>> were rejected but because the public was not informed properly.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Without country-wide public education, a referendum should not be<br>> held. Rather, the decision should be left to the committee based on<br>> public input, because an uniformed referendum vote will most<br>> certainly reject change no matter how beneficial it may be.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Public education should consist of 3 parts.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> First, the ballot should be shown. Most voters fear that voting<br>> will be confusing. A Mixed Member PR ballot consists of space to<br>> vote for the local candidate as we do now and then another space to<br>> vote for the party of choice (which can differ from the party of<br>> the chosen candidate if the voter wishes) ... simple.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Second, voters should be encouraged by the major benefits of PR.<br>> <br>> · Every vote counts toward giving the voter's party of<br>> choice the same percentage of seats in Ottawa as the party received<br>> in national vote count.<br>> <br>> · Strategic voting which can produce false majorities (a<br>> majority of seats without a majority percentage of votes) becomes<br>> unnecessary. A citizen can vote for the party that most matches<br>> his/her ideals and be assured that that party will get its fair<br>> share of seats.<br>> <br>> · Parties can present their true platforms instead of having<br>> to compromise them to get elected.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Third, voters should be encouraged by learning the major countries<br>> that use PR successfully such as Germany, Denmark, Japan,<br>> Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Republic of Ireland, Scotland,<br>> Sweden, Wales and many more.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Yours Truly,<br>> <br>> Donald A Fraser,<br>> <br>> 184 Forsyth Drive,<br>> <br>> Waterloo, Ontario,<br>> <br>> N2L1A2,<br>> <br>> 519-576-9210<br>> <br>> On 30 June 2016 at 05:22, Sharon Sommerville<br>> <sharonsommerville@gmail.com> wrote:<br>> <br>>> Sorry Donald, I missed your response. Could you forward it to<br>>> me?<br>>> <br>>> With thanks, Sharon<br>>> <br>>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Donald Fraser<br>>> <donaldafraser@gmail.com> wrote:<br>>> <br>>>> OK I take it my response does not please our group ... my<br>>>> rationale for saying that a referendum would be OK with public<br>>>> education FIRST ... was to give the public education<br>>>> <br>>>> If I didn't respond that such a referendum would be OK then I<br>>>> didn't have a reason to exhibit in the letter what we would<br>>>> (and are) presenting to the public.<br>>>> <br>>>> On 29 June 2016 at 21:20, Bob Jonkman <bjonkman@sobac.com><br>>>> wrote:<br>>>> <br>> On 2016-06-29 08:32 PM, Laurel L. Russwurm wrote:<br>>>>>>> Bob:<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> Your response here needs to be posted as an article on<br>>>>>>> the fvcwrc blog.<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> Maybe illustrated with a copy of the FVC postcard picture<br>>>>>>> and an invitation to people to come pick up a postcard<br>>>>>>> and/or ask questions at the Fair Vote booth at the<br>>>>>>> upcoming summer festivals.<br>> <br>> Done!<br>> <br>> http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/on-referenda-consultations-and-postcards/<br>><br>> The blog is also open for contributions by Fair Vote Waterloo<br>> members. Sign up at<br>> https://www.fairvotewrc.ca/wp-login.php?action=register and write<br>> something!<br>> <br>> --Bob.<br>> <br>> <br>>>>>>> On 06/29/2016 12:23 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:<br>>>>>>>> Yes, very disappointing. I couldn't believe you guys<br>>>>>>>> were tweeting it to make people read that piece of<br>>>>>>>> rubbish. I'm sorry you had to be the poster-boy for<br>>>>>>>> "but I did get a second viewpoint" journalism.<br>>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Bob Jonkman<br>>>>>>>> <bjonkman@sobac.com <mailto:bjonkman@sobac.com>><br>>>>>>>> wrote:<br>>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> I get quoted in today's column by Luisa D'Amato:<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>>>> <br>> http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/6743051-d-amato-despite-brexit-we-need-a-referendum-on-electoral-reform/<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>>><br>> <br>D’Amato: Despite Brexit, we need a referendum on electoral<br>>>>>>>> reform<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>>> Bob Jonkman, co-chair of the Waterloo Region chapter of<br>>>>>>>> Fair Vote Canada, says there is barely time to put a<br>>>>>>>> new system in place, let alone ask people what they<br>>>>>>>> think of it<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> Ms. D'Amato and I had a 20 minute conversation yesterday<br>>>>>>> and that's only a brief and under-representative quote of<br>>>>>>> what we spoke about. Among other things, I expressed my<br>>>>>>> opinion that a referendum on Electoral Reform isn't<br>>>>>>> necessary because:<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> 1) Parliament (and provincial legislatures) may change<br>>>>>>> the electoral system with a vote in parliament, as they<br>>>>>>> have done for every other electoral reform issue such as<br>>>>>>> giving the vote to women<br>>>>>>>>> (1917-1918) or<br>>>>>>> First Nations people (1960!)<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> 2) A referendum on electoral reform is not a<br>>>>>>> constitutional requirement. The only issue that affects<br>>>>>>> consitutionality is seat allocation to the provinces, and<br>>>>>>> that requirement is easily met by<br>>>>>>>>> not<br>>>>>>> extending electoral boundaries across provincial lines.<br>>>>>>> (We didn't discuss it, but there have been many electoral<br>>>>>>> boundary changes, notably before the 2015 election, which<br>>>>>>> didn't go to a referendum and were perfectly<br>>>>>>> constitutional)<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> 3) That an effective and equal vote is a right, and that<br>>>>>>> the First-Past-The-Post system violates that right, and<br>>>>>>> rights issues are never decided by referenda.<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> I spoke of the rarity of referenda in Canada, that the<br>>>>>>> only national referenda have been on issues like<br>>>>>>> prohibition (I thought that was in the 1930's, but it was<br>>>>>>> in 1898), and the separation of Quebec (1992). Ms.<br>>>>>>> D'Amato pointed out that we had a municipal referendum on<br>>>>>>> fluoridation, and pointed out the many provincial <br>>>>>>> referenda on electoral reform.<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> We talked about the 2007 referendum in Ontario -- that<br>>>>>>> example is a great reason to avoid referenda on these<br>>>>>>> topics. Although the<br>>>>>>>>> McGuinty<br>>>>>>> Liberals made it an election promise in 2003, the<br>>>>>>> Citizens' Assembly wasn't formed until 2006, leaving them<br>>>>>>> only six months to become experts in voting systems and<br>>>>>>> make a recommendation. Elections<br>>>>>>>>> Ontario<br>>>>>>> did not have enough information documents available; Fair<br>>>>>>> Vote Waterloo members went door-to-door, and we ran out.<br>>>>>>> Elections Ontario themselves were prohibited from giving<br>>>>>>> out information on the<br>>>>>>>>> proposed<br>>>>>>> voting system, and when voters went to the polls in<br>>>>>>> October most didn't even know there was a referendum on.<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> I expressed dismay that it took the Federal Liberal<br>>>>>>> government eight months to form the current All-party<br>>>>>>> Parliamentary Committee, that<br>>>>>>>>> the<br>>>>>>> Committee's proposal is due on 1 December (and<br>>>>>>> consultations need to wrapped up by 1 October), that the<br>>>>>>> time it would take to move a bill through parliament<br>>>>>>> could be as much as year, what with debate, multiple<br>>>>>>> reading, and senate approval, and that Elections Canada<br>>>>>>> will need a year to re-tool for a new electoral system.<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> And that whole conversation was distilled down to the<br>>>>>>> one sentence.<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> --Bob.<br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ This is<br>>>>>>>> the fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message: <br>>>>>>>> fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org <br>>>>>>>> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org><br>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:<br>>>>>>>> <br>>>>>>>> <br>> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org<br>>>>>>>><br>>>>>>>><br>>>>>>>><br>>>>>>>><br>>>>>>>><br>>>>>>>><br>>>>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>> <br>_______________________________________________<br>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:<br>>>>> fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org Unsubscribe: <br>>>>> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org<br>>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>> <br>_______________________________________________<br>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:<br>>>> fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org Unsubscribe: <br>>>> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org<br>>>><br>>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>> <br>_______________________________________________<br>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:<br>>> fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org Unsubscribe: <br>>> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org<br>>><br>>><br>><br>>> <br>> <br>> <br>> _______________________________________________ This is the<br>> fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:<br>> fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org Unsubscribe:<br>> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org<br>><br>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>Version: GnuPG v2<br>Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability<br><br>iEYEARECAAYFAld1aQ4ACgkQuRKJsNLM5er5qQCg0WvbgQsiqo1O4vl+169rBxlp<br>r1YAnRI5WHQUOYRLhe4gb7Vq11EurjFo<br>=nhE7<br>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<br>Post a message: fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org<br>Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org<br></div></body>