<div dir="ltr">thanks, Laurel ... as I stated before I don't really want a referendum because the public is uninformed ... But it gave me an excuse to say what that education should be.<div><br></div><div>cheers,</div><div>Don</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 4 July 2016 at 08:28, Laurel L. Russwurm <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:laurel.l@russwurm.org" target="_blank">laurel.l@russwurm.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>It doesn't matter if the your letter or
comments please everyone, Don. In a democracy every voice needs
to be heard, so the big picture is properly addressed by policy
and law. Bob left a photocopy of an awful David Akin article
praising FPTP laying around, Akin argues FPTP allows us to
disagree while PR will reduce politics to one voice. But he's
got it backward. What we have now makes every party say the same
thing because they all need the most voters ... so the reality is
what we have is big tent parties that try to pretend they are
everything to everyone, and disagreement within is dangerous. <br>
<br>
PR is so powerful because when we say what we think, we can find
out where consensus lays, but also see other points of view, find
out what works and what doesn't so we can refine our thoughts and
arguments. (Like beta readers for a self publishing novelist,
there is no wrong answer. We need to learn from each other,
brainstorm together. It is decidedly weird to argue against
better democracy by arguing against direct democracy. As Jenn
points out, what you've done well is to articulate an important
part of why a referendum is as inappropriate here as in the UK. <br>
<br>
If we lived in Switzerland where they are referenda mad, as a
matter of course they spend 2 years educating the public before
each one. The Canadian experience is different: not only is the
populace largely in the dark because we have <br>
(a) no experience of PR <br>
(b) no education about it <br>
(c) the media has spectacularly failed to inform us<br>
AND<br>
(d) our winner-take-all system inflicts time limits. No matter
how good the idea when government changes the new guys won't touch
it. <br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Laurel<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 06/30/2016 09:06 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Actually, Donald, that isn't true. I think it is a
great message!!<br>
<br>
</div>
Because, "polls show that 62% of Canadians want a
referendum" but how many of those people want an education
campaign FIRST? Why don't you ask that question, Mr.
Pollster, because I'm sure Canada doesn't think the
disgrace that was the Brexit referendum is anything to
follow.<br>
<br>
</div>
And we can't make THAT a thing until we have people saying
they want an education component.<br>
<br>
</div>
So, good job in getting that ball rolling. :)<br>
<br>
</div>
Jenn<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Donald
Fraser <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:donaldafraser@gmail.com" target="_blank">donaldafraser@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">OK I take it my response does not please our
group ... my rationale for saying that a referendum would
be OK with public education FIRST ... was to give the
public education
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If I didn't respond that such a referendum would be
OK then I didn't have a reason to exhibit in the letter
what we would (and are) presenting to the public.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 29 June 2016 at 21:20, Bob
Jonkman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bjonkman@sobac.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:bjonkman@sobac.com" target="_blank">bjonkman@sobac.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>-----BEGIN
PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA1<br>
<br>
</span><span>On 2016-06-29 08:32 PM, Laurel L.
Russwurm wrote:<br>
> Bob:<br>
><br>
> Your response here needs to be posted as an
article on the fvcwrc<br>
> blog.<br>
><br>
> Maybe illustrated with a copy of the FVC
postcard picture and an<br>
> invitation to people to come pick up a
postcard and/or ask<br>
> questions at the Fair Vote booth at the
upcoming summer festivals.<br>
<br>
</span>Done!<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/on-referenda-consultations-and-postcards/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/on-referenda-consultations-and-postcards/</a><br>
<br>
The blog is also open for contributions by Fair
Vote Waterloo members.<br>
Sign up at <a href="https://www.fairvotewrc.ca/wp-login.php?action=register" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.fairvotewrc.ca/wp-login.php?action=register</a>
and<br>
write something!<br>
<br>
- --Bob.<br>
<span><br>
<br>
> On 06/29/2016 12:23 AM, Jennifer Ross
wrote:<br>
>> Yes, very disappointing. I couldn't
believe you guys were<br>
>> tweeting it to make people read that
piece of rubbish. I'm sorry<br>
>> you had to be the poster-boy for "but I
did get a second<br>
>> viewpoint" journalism.<br>
>><br>
>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Bob
Jonkman <<a href="mailto:bjonkman@sobac.com" target="_blank">bjonkman@sobac.com</a><br>
</span>
<div>
<div>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:bjonkman@sobac.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:bjonkman@sobac.com" target="_blank">bjonkman@sobac.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>><br>
> I get quoted in today's column by Luisa
D'Amato:<br>
><br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/6743051-d-amato-despite-brexit-we-need-a-referendum-on-electoral-reform/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/6743051-d-amato-despite-brexit-we-need-a-referendum-on-electoral-reform/</a><br>
><br>
>>><br>
><br>
>> D’Amato: Despite Brexit, we need a
referendum on electoral<br>
>> reform<br>
><br>
>> Bob Jonkman, co-chair of the Waterloo
Region chapter of Fair<br>
>> Vote Canada, says there is barely
time to put a new system in<br>
>> place, let alone ask people what they
think of it<br>
><br>
> Ms. D'Amato and I had a 20 minute
conversation yesterday and<br>
> that's only a brief and
under-representative quote of what we spoke<br>
> about. Among other things, I expressed my
opinion that a referendum<br>
> on Electoral Reform isn't necessary
because:<br>
><br>
> 1) Parliament (and provincial
legislatures) may change the<br>
> electoral system with a vote in
parliament, as they have done for<br>
> every other electoral reform issue such
as giving the vote to<br>
> women<br>
>>> (1917-1918) or<br>
> First Nations people (1960!)<br>
><br>
> 2) A referendum on electoral reform is
not a constitutional<br>
> requirement. The only issue that affects
consitutionality is seat<br>
> allocation to the provinces, and that
requirement is easily met by<br>
>>> not<br>
> extending electoral boundaries across
provincial lines. (We didn't<br>
> discuss it, but there have been many
electoral boundary changes,<br>
> notably before the 2015 election, which
didn't go to a referendum<br>
> and were perfectly constitutional)<br>
><br>
> 3) That an effective and equal vote is a
right, and that the<br>
> First-Past-The-Post system violates that
right, and rights issues<br>
> are never decided by referenda.<br>
><br>
> I spoke of the rarity of referenda in
Canada, that the only<br>
> national referenda have been on issues
like prohibition (I thought<br>
> that was in the 1930's, but it was in
1898), and the separation of<br>
> Quebec (1992). Ms. D'Amato pointed out
that we had a municipal<br>
> referendum on fluoridation, and pointed
out the many provincial<br>
> referenda on electoral reform.<br>
><br>
> We talked about the 2007 referendum in
Ontario -- that example is<br>
> a great reason to avoid referenda on
these topics. Although the<br>
>>> McGuinty<br>
> Liberals made it an election promise in
2003, the Citizens'<br>
> Assembly wasn't formed until 2006,
leaving them only six months to<br>
> become experts in voting systems and make
a recommendation.<br>
> Elections<br>
>>> Ontario<br>
> did not have enough information documents
available; Fair Vote<br>
> Waterloo members went door-to-door, and
we ran out. Elections<br>
> Ontario themselves were prohibited from
giving out information on<br>
> the<br>
>>> proposed<br>
> voting system, and when voters went to
the polls in October most<br>
> didn't even know there was a referendum
on.<br>
><br>
> I expressed dismay that it took the
Federal Liberal government<br>
> eight months to form the current
All-party Parliamentary Committee,<br>
> that<br>
>>> the<br>
> Committee's proposal is due on 1 December
(and consultations need<br>
> to wrapped up by 1 October), that the
time it would take to move a<br>
> bill through parliament could be as much
as year, what with<br>
> debate, multiple reading, and senate
approval, and that Elections<br>
> Canada will need a year to re-tool for a
new electoral system.<br>
><br>
> And that whole conversation was distilled
down to the one<br>
> sentence.<br>
><br>
</div>
</div>
> --Bob.<br>
<span>><br>
><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>
_______________________________________________
This is the<br>
>> fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a
message:<br>
>> <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>
</span>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a>>
Unsubscribe:<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
- --<br>
<span>>> No other Western democratic country
concentrates as much<br>
>> political power in the hands of one
person as Canada does with<br>
>> her Prime Minister.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>
_______________________________________________
This is the<br>
>> fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a
message:<br>
>> <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a>
Unsubscribe:<br>
>> <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
_______________________________________________
This is the<br>
> fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:<br>
> <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a>
Unsubscribe:<br>
> <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>
><br>
</span><span>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
Version: GnuPG v2<br>
Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity,
non-repudiability<br>
<br>
</span>iEYEARECAAYFAld0ngQACgkQuRKJsNLM5equtwCePjB8t71t6S3oqZgbfoc04nbd<br>
l4UAnRjMKGkz36tsln7tAtHLSp0ostwx<br>
=t/f4<br>
<div>
<div>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<br>
Post a message: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>
Unsubscribe: <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<br>
Post a message: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>
Unsubscribe: <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:10px;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><span><font color="#888888"><font size="1"><span style="font-family:tahoma,new york,times,serif"><span style="line-height:10.909090995788574px">No
other Western democratic country
concentrates as much political power </span></span></font><font size="1"><span style="font-family:tahoma,new york,times,serif"><span style="line-height:10.909090995788574px">in
the hands of one person as Canada does
with her Prime Minister. </span></span></font></font></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
Post a message: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a>
Unsubscribe: <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><br>
</p>
</div></div><div>-- <br><span class="">
<a href="http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/" target="_blank">Laurel L. Russwurm,
Author</a> § <a href="http://about.me/laurelrusswurm" target="_blank">about.me</a>
§ <a href="http://libreleft.com" target="_blank">Libreleft Books</a>
</span></div>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<br>
Post a message: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>
Unsubscribe: <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>