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<p>Bob, you're correct but to the majority of voters, voting in FPTP is simple and therefore preferred.</p>
<p>Their concern is not fairness or democracy.</p>
<p>Paul, your comments on other pros os FPTP are valid if democracy is not important.</p>
<p>My stance is that FPTP is not democratic unless the purpose of democracy is to eliminate fair representation for most Canadians.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, for some Canadians, that is a pro for FPTP. In any discussion Fairvote would not need to call it a pro.</p>
<p>The geographic balance that FPTP can provide can also be provided and even enhanced in a system such as MMP where the non-constituency MPs can be awarded with adjustments for geographic and diversity factors considered.</p>
<p>Dave</p>
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<p>---------- Original Message ----------<br />From: Bob Jonkman <bjonkman@sobac.com><br />Date: July 29, 2016 at 12:39 PM<br /><br /><br />-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br />Hash: SHA1<br /><br />Dave Arthur wrote:<br />> The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is that it is simple.<br /><br />But it's not. Try to explain how 39% of the vote results in 54% of the<br />seats in parliament. Why 57% of the votes cast in Kitchener<br />South-Hespeler did not contribute to sending anyone to parliament.<br />That Elizabeth May does not represent 600,000 voters across Canada,<br />but only 104,000 people in Saanich-Gulf Islands (and maybe only the<br />37,000 people who voted for her).<br /><br />While it is simple to fill in an FPTP ballot, the election results are<br />baffling. And it is just as simple to fill in an MMP ballot (Two X<br />marks! Twice as hard!) or an STV ballot (counting from 1 to 5 is<br />pretty simple), and the election results from any proportional system<br />are much easier to understand.<br /><br />- --Bob.<br /><br /><br /><br />On 07/29/16 08:25, arthurd23 arthurd23 wrote:<br />> Thanks Paul.<br />> <br />> If we attempt to be impartial, it shouldn't be difficult to have PR<br />> pros vastly outnumber FPTP and AV pros.<br />> <br />> The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is that it is simple. Are<br />> there any others?<br />> <br />> The only advantage of AV is that the winning candidate accumulates<br />> 50% support when you include enough second place and third place<br />> supporters who don't really favour the winning candidate.<br />> <br />> PR has by far the most pros.<br />> <br />> Dave<br />> <br />>> ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Paul Nijjar<br />>> <paul_nijjar@yahoo.ca> Date: July 29, 2016 at 3:18 AM<br />>> <br />>> <br />>> <br />>> (CCing to fvc-wat-disc. I do not know whether it will get<br />>> through because I do not know if the mailing list has been<br />>> configured to work with Yahoo. But I will try.)<br />>> <br />>> Okay, we are booked for a presentation at the Kitchener Public <br />>> Library.<br />>> <br />>> I talked with the programming manager at the KPL over the phone<br />>> today. She said that if I got a blurb to her by tomorrow then it<br />>> could be included in the In Touch magazine. I just sent that<br />>> blurb to her now (unfortunately in addition to being lazy my<br />>> stomach started acting up this evening, and I have spent a lot of<br />>> time lying low). Here is the blurb:<br />>> <br />>> ----<br />>> <br />>> Prime Minister Trudeau has promised to make "every vote count"<br />>> in future elections, and the process of electoral reform is<br />>> currently underway. Why might the current electoral system<br />>> benefit from reform? What electoral reforms are being considered?<br />>> What are their advantages and disadvantages? How is this<br />>> electoral reform process structured? How can we participate in<br />>> this process? Representatives from Fair Vote Canada will address<br />>> these issues and take your questions.<br />>> <br />>> ----<br />>> <br />>> I also made a bunch of other promises and decisions that the<br />>> Executive might not like. Here is a summary:<br />>> <br />>> - The event will be held at the central branch of the library on <br />>> Thursday, Sept 8, from 7:00pm-8:30pm. (We also had the option of <br />>> Sept 1 or Sept 22, and I may have made the wrong choice.)<br />>> <br />>> - We were originally booked for Meeting Room A, which holds 60<br />>> people. I implied that we could get over 60 people to the event,<br />>> so we are rebooked for a bigger room (maybe the auditorium? It is<br />>> not clear). Now we have to keep that promise. If only 20 people<br />>> show up we will look pretty bad.<br />>> <br />>> - It sounds as if the KPL is more interested in a discussion of <br />>> different electoral systems, as well as non-electoral system<br />>> options including mandatory voting and electronic voting.<br />>> However, we should still cover the electoral reform process (the<br />>> committee, Monsef's five principles, etc)<br />>> <br />>> - This is a part that will be contentious: the KPL wants this <br />>> presentation to lean towards impartiality, with an honest<br />>> discussion of pros in cons. They are not interested in having us<br />>> advocate for one electoral system in particular, because they do<br />>> not want to come across as being partisan in this issue. I warned<br />>> the KPL that FVC tends to be unkind to FPTP and AV, but promised<br />>> that I would try to steer the direction of the presentation more<br />>> towards public information (Here is what is happening! Here are<br />>> our options! Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each!)<br />>> and less towards sermonizing (Proportional Representation is<br />>> amazing and you are a stupidhead if you don't support it!). I<br />>> have not seen Byron's presentation in a while, but I think that<br />>> it is reasonably close to something that will make the KPL<br />>> happy.<br />>> <br />>> - The current format is looking like a 45-minute presentation<br />>> followed by abundant Q&A. This format is not set in stone. In<br />>> particular, if we wanted to put together a panel (with some<br />>> representatives from Keep Voting Simple?) then that would be okay<br />>> with the KPL too.<br />>> <br />>> Managing Q&A is going to be tricky, because events like this<br />>> attract people who like to ramble instead of asking questions.<br />>> Maybe written questions are the way to go?<br />>> <br />>> - The KPL can provide a projector. We will provide laptops and<br />>> other equipment.<br />>> <br />>> - We are allowed to have a booth outside the presentation if we<br />>> want. (The KPL told us they will not give us their registration<br />>> list, but that's fine and we were not expecting that anyways.) I<br />>> am guessing we could invite LeadNow and other groups (Keep Voting<br />>> Simple?) to have booths as well, but I do not know for sure.<br />>> <br />>> <br />>> Next Steps ----------<br />>> <br />>> - Figure out what format the presentation will take. It seems to<br />>> me that Byron's presentation is adaptable if we use a<br />>> presentation. If we want to put together a panel then FVC can be<br />>> less even-handed, but the other panellists might be better at<br />>> convincing people than we are.<br />>> <br />>> - Figure out who will present. My guess is that the natural<br />>> choice is Byron or Sean, since they have done this presentation<br />>> before. There might be other good presenters available as well. I<br />>> am also open to doing the presenting in the worst case. (Really?<br />>> I am too anxious to staff a booth but I can present to a big<br />>> audience? I guess my ego is really that huge.)<br />>> <br />>> - Work towards getting a good turnout, especially amongst people<br />>> who are not already voting nerds. KPL marketing will definitely<br />>> help but we have work to do as well:<br />>> <br />>> + If FVC makes some tweets or Facebook posts, can the rest of us <br />>> retweet/like/promote those items? (Sean says that Anita has a<br />>> good social network, so maybe we can exploit that.) + Can we<br />>> personally invite friends, family and enemies to attend the <br />>> presentation? + We should let LeadNow know that this presentation<br />>> is happening. I can probably email Sylvie if she is not already<br />>> on this list. + We can let people know this is happening via the<br />>> announcement list.<br />>> <br />>> I am sure there are other promotional ideas as well. We should<br />>> not rest on our laurels about this.<br />>> <br />>> - We should not stop here. Having one prominent organization<br />>> agree to host a talk is good leverage for convincing others. We<br />>> should reach out to the libraries again. It would also be great<br />>> to hit up service clubs (Rotarians, Lions Club), co-ops (we have<br />>> had good success with housing co-ops in the past), church groups,<br />>> and maybe even the remaining electoral district associations<br />>> (even the Conservatives!).<br />>> <br />>> <br />>> <br />>> <br />>> _______________________________________________ This is the<br />>> fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:<br />>> fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org Unsubscribe: <br />>> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org<br />>><br />><br />>> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> _______________________________________________ This is the<br />> fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:<br />> fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org Unsubscribe:<br />> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org<br />><br />> <br />- -- <br /><br /><br />- --<br />Bob Jonkman <bjonkman@sobac.com> Phone: +1-519-635-9413<br />SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/<br />Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting<br />GnuPG Fngrprnt:04F7 742B 8F54 C40A E115 26C2 B912 89B0 D2CC E5EA<br /><br /><br /><br />-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br />Version: GnuPG v2<br />Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability<br /><br />iEYEARECAAYFAlebhscACgkQuRKJsNLM5eoxCACg1zyOgF14OwAqhMYnMN+ckb7h<br />m2UAnA0TDSzycmSgEmdUH8cV/iZa8bTo<br />=H9i1<br />-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br /><br /><br />_______________________________________________<br />This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<br />Post a message: fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org<br />Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org<br /></p>
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