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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Paul says:<br>
<br>
I see no reason at all or Fair Vote Waterloo to invite a FPTP
entity. <br>
This is a part that will be contentious: the KPL wants this <br>
>> presentation to lean towards impartiality, with an honest<br>
>> discussion of pros in cons. They are not interested in
having us<br>
>> advocate for one electoral system in particular, because
they do<br>
>> not want to come across as being partisan in this issue.
I warned<br>
>> the KPL that FVC tends to be unkind to FPTP and AV, but
promised<br>
>> that I would try to steer the direction of the
presentation more<br>
>> towards public information (Here is what is happening!
Here are<br>
>> our options! Here are the advantages and disadvantages of
each!)<br>
>> and less towards sermonizing (Proportional Representation
is<br>
>> amazing and you are a stupidhead if you don't support
it!). I<br>
>> have not seen Byron's presentation in a while, but I
think that<br>
>> it is reasonably close to something that will make the
KPL<br>
>> happy.<br>
<br>
In both my Dennis Pilon videos (no, the 2nd isn't done) the first
thing he does is explain the different systems including FPTP.
Steve Dyck did the same thing at the Guelph event. This is
reasonable. <br>
<br>
Fair Vote does not advocate for any specific system, it advocates
for fair outcomes, which can ONLY mean a system from the
proportional family, which is not the same thing at all. The real
point here is that if the status quo is so easy, nobody should
have to speak up for it. FPTP is the default. It doesn't need
FVCwrc's help <br>
<br>
In my experience in the interest of being evenhanded FVC folk
agree that FPTP is simple. But it is not. <br>
<br>
What this should be is FVC presenting information. Maybe holding
mock election for FPTP, STV and MMP<br>
<br>
I know people say FPTP is simple but I disagree. It is no simpler
for voters to vote in FPTP than any PR system... unless you think
2 xes is harder than one, or counting to twenty is too difficult.
Even then, if I'm not mistaken EVERY PR system suggested for
Canada would be flexible enough to allow voters to continue making
a single mark if they so choose.<br>
<br>
FPTP is not simpler, it is only FAMILIAR.<br>
<br>
Raj Saini complained about voters accidentally marking the
Libertarian candidate when seeing "Lib" rather than the Liberal
candidate. <br>
<br>
And Dennis Pilon says we spoil more ballots here in Canada under
FPTP than under STV in Ireland (said to be the most difficult form
of PR for voters)<br>
<br>
I know I spent 30 years not understanding why my vote didn't ever
count. I was seriously on the verge of giving up on this futile
faux democracy and joined the ranks of non-voters but for the fact
Paul introduced Fair Vote Canada to Bob. <br>
<br>
Fair Vote Canada is an advocate for Proportional Representation.
It is a LOBBY group for citizens... this is my understanding of
why FVC has not been invited to speak to the ERRE committee.<br>
<br>
[Note: EVERY FVC member who can talk about PR with accuracy and
authority ought to be submitting themselves as committee expert
witnesses.<br>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<p style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size:
14.6667px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 1;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">From the press release: <br>
—REQUESTS TO APPEAR: Requests to appear may be sent to the
Committee by email (<a href="mailto:erre@parl.gc.ca"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">erre@parl.gc.ca</a>)
or by using the appropriate button on the Committee’s website.
Please note that the Committee clerks will contact only those
who are selected by the Committee members to appear. Requests to
appear must be submitted to the Committee no later than October
7, 2016, at 11:59 p.m. (EDT).<br>
<a
href="http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=e&Mode=1&Parl=0&Ses=0&DocId=8385844"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=e&Mode=1&Parl=0&Ses=0&DocId=8385844">http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=e&Mode=1&Parl=0&Ses=0&DocId=8385844</a></a><br>
</p>
Presumably every committee member who worked on the presentation
would be suitable to argue "why Proportional Representation", as
well as Anita, Jennifer, Sharon, Steve Dyck from Guelph, Pat from
FairVote Peel, Larry Gordon, Wayne Smith, Kelly Carmichael and
many more.<br>
<br>
I am not saying to pretend not to be FVC folk, it should be clear
you are. If a ton of Fair Vote people request to appear I can't
see them being able to justify ignoring you all]<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
That's my two bits.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Laurel<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 08/01/2016 03:27 PM, Sharon Sommerville wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAL30Ef319en1w+Bc8EUWuzsoZi4+mgAPkEqQ4CrURBaqOYu20A@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hello All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I took some deliberate time off over the past few days, to
re-charge and have not been a part of this discussion but it
is Monday afternoon and time to get back at.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>First, so many thanks to Paul for taking this on, we would
not have something cooking with the library if he hadn't.
Thank you Paul.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The format needs to honour both the need for even
handedness by the library and our work to promote PR. Our
power point presentation was designed to be as fair as is
possible given our mandate ( it was put together by a
multipartisan committee - 2 Liberals, 1 NDP, 1 Conservative
and 1 non aligned voter) and with additional adaptation could
be more so. Specifically, the last slide which calls for PR
could be removed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My personal preference would be to deliver our presentation
followed by a robust Q & A and discussion. We could invite
a number of folks that represent as spectrum political views
to participate in the Q & A. I am not keen to organize a
panel and invite someone from Keep Voting Simple as they will
be getting lots of media attention due to the interest of the
<span class="" id=":295.6" tabindex="-1">MSM</span> to
encourage controversy but to maintain the educational focus on
electoral systems in general & promote dialogue in the
community. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thoughts?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards,</div>
<div>Sharon</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:47 PM,
arthurd23 arthurd23 <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:arthurd23@bell.net"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arthurd23@bell.net">arthurd23@bell.net</a></a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Bob, you're correct but to the majority of voters,
voting in FPTP is simple and therefore preferred.</p>
<p>Their concern is not fairness or democracy.</p>
<p>Paul, your comments on other pros os FPTP are valid if
democracy is not important.</p>
<p>My stance is that FPTP is not democratic unless the
purpose of democracy is to eliminate fair representation
for most Canadians.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, for some Canadians, that is a pro for
FPTP. In any discussion Fairvote would not need to call
it a pro.</p>
<p>The geographic balance that FPTP can provide can also
be provided and even enhanced in a system such as MMP
where the non-constituency MPs can be awarded with
adjustments for geographic and diversity factors
considered.</p>
<p>Dave</p>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>---------- Original Message ----------<br>
From: Bob Jonkman <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bjonkman@sobac.com" target="_blank">bjonkman@sobac.com</a>><br>
Date: July 29, 2016 at 12:39 PM<br>
<br>
<br>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA1<br>
<br>
Dave Arthur wrote:<br>
> The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is
that it is simple.<br>
<br>
But it's not. Try to explain how 39% of the vote
results in 54% of the<br>
seats in parliament. Why 57% of the votes cast in
Kitchener<br>
South-Hespeler did not contribute to sending
anyone to parliament.<br>
That Elizabeth May does not represent 600,000
voters across Canada,<br>
but only 104,000 people in Saanich-Gulf Islands
(and maybe only the<br>
37,000 people who voted for her).<br>
<br>
While it is simple to fill in an FPTP ballot, the
election results are<br>
baffling. And it is just as simple to fill in an
MMP ballot (Two X<br>
marks! Twice as hard!) or an STV ballot (counting
from 1 to 5 is<br>
pretty simple), and the election results from any
proportional system<br>
are much easier to understand.<br>
<br>
- --Bob.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 07/29/16 08:25, arthurd23 arthurd23 wrote:<br>
> Thanks Paul.<br>
> <br>
> If we attempt to be impartial, it shouldn't
be difficult to have PR<br>
> pros vastly outnumber FPTP and AV pros.<br>
> <br>
> The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is
that it is simple. Are<br>
> there any others?<br>
> <br>
> The only advantage of AV is that the winning
candidate accumulates<br>
> 50% support when you include enough second
place and third place<br>
> supporters who don't really favour the
winning candidate.<br>
> <br>
> PR has by far the most pros.<br>
> <br>
> Dave<br>
> <br>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
From: Paul Nijjar<br>
>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul_nijjar@yahoo.ca"
target="_blank">paul_nijjar@yahoo.ca</a>>
Date: July 29, 2016 at 3:18 AM<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> (CCing to fvc-wat-disc. I do not know
whether it will get<br>
>> through because I do not know if the
mailing list has been<br>
>> configured to work with Yahoo. But I will
try.)<br>
>> <br>
>> Okay, we are booked for a presentation at
the Kitchener Public <br>
>> Library.<br>
>> <br>
>> I talked with the programming manager at
the KPL over the phone<br>
>> today. She said that if I got a blurb to
her by tomorrow then it<br>
>> could be included in the In Touch
magazine. I just sent that<br>
>> blurb to her now (unfortunately in
addition to being lazy my<br>
>> stomach started acting up this evening,
and I have spent a lot of<br>
>> time lying low). Here is the blurb:<br>
>> <br>
>> ----<br>
>> <br>
>> Prime Minister Trudeau has promised to
make "every vote count"<br>
>> in future elections, and the process of
electoral reform is<br>
>> currently underway. Why might the current
electoral system<br>
>> benefit from reform? What electoral
reforms are being considered?<br>
>> What are their advantages and
disadvantages? How is this<br>
>> electoral reform process structured? How
can we participate in<br>
>> this process? Representatives from Fair
Vote Canada will address<br>
>> these issues and take your questions.<br>
>> <br>
>> ----<br>
>> <br>
>> I also made a bunch of other promises and
decisions that the<br>
>> Executive might not like. Here is a
summary:<br>
>> <br>
>> - The event will be held at the central
branch of the library on <br>
>> Thursday, Sept 8, from 7:00pm-8:30pm. (We
also had the option of <br>
>> Sept 1 or Sept 22, and I may have made
the wrong choice.)<br>
>> <br>
>> - We were originally booked for Meeting
Room A, which holds 60<br>
>> people. I implied that we could get over
60 people to the event,<br>
>> so we are rebooked for a bigger room
(maybe the auditorium? It is<br>
>> not clear). Now we have to keep that
promise. If only 20 people<br>
>> show up we will look pretty bad.<br>
>> <br>
>> - It sounds as if the KPL is more
interested in a discussion of <br>
>> different electoral systems, as well as
non-electoral system<br>
>> options including mandatory voting and
electronic voting.<br>
>> However, we should still cover the
electoral reform process (the<br>
>> committee, Monsef's five principles, etc)<br>
>> <br>
>> - This is a part that will be
contentious: the KPL wants this <br>
>> presentation to lean towards
impartiality, with an honest<br>
>> discussion of pros in cons. They are not
interested in having us<br>
>> advocate for one electoral system in
particular, because they do<br>
>> not want to come across as being partisan
in this issue. I warned<br>
>> the KPL that FVC tends to be unkind to
FPTP and AV, but promised<br>
>> that I would try to steer the direction
of the presentation more<br>
>> towards public information (Here is what
is happening! Here are<br>
>> our options! Here are the advantages and
disadvantages of each!)<br>
>> and less towards sermonizing
(Proportional Representation is<br>
>> amazing and you are a stupidhead if you
don't support it!). I<br>
>> have not seen Byron's presentation in a
while, but I think that<br>
>> it is reasonably close to something that
will make the KPL<br>
>> happy.<br>
>> <br>
>> - The current format is looking like a
45-minute presentation<br>
>> followed by abundant Q&A. This format
is not set in stone. In<br>
>> particular, if we wanted to put together
a panel (with some<br>
>> representatives from Keep Voting Simple?)
then that would be okay<br>
>> with the KPL too.<br>
>> <br>
>> Managing Q&A is going to be tricky,
because events like this<br>
>> attract people who like to ramble instead
of asking questions.<br>
>> Maybe written questions are the way to
go?<br>
>> <br>
>> - The KPL can provide a projector. We
will provide laptops and<br>
>> other equipment.<br>
>> <br>
>> - We are allowed to have a booth outside
the presentation if we<br>
>> want. (The KPL told us they will not give
us their registration<br>
>> list, but that's fine and we were not
expecting that anyways.) I<br>
>> am guessing we could invite LeadNow and
other groups (Keep Voting<br>
>> Simple?) to have booths as well, but I do
not know for sure.<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> Next Steps ----------<br>
>> <br>
>> - Figure out what format the presentation
will take. It seems to<br>
>> me that Byron's presentation is adaptable
if we use a<br>
>> presentation. If we want to put together
a panel then FVC can be<br>
>> less even-handed, but the other
panellists might be better at<br>
>> convincing people than we are.<br>
>> <br>
>> - Figure out who will present. My guess
is that the natural<br>
>> choice is Byron or Sean, since they have
done this presentation<br>
>> before. There might be other good
presenters available as well. I<br>
>> am also open to doing the presenting in
the worst case. (Really?<br>
>> I am too anxious to staff a booth but I
can present to a big<br>
>> audience? I guess my ego is really that
huge.)<br>
>> <br>
>> - Work towards getting a good turnout,
especially amongst people<br>
>> who are not already voting nerds. KPL
marketing will definitely<br>
>> help but we have work to do as well:<br>
>> <br>
>> + If FVC makes some tweets or Facebook
posts, can the rest of us <br>
>> retweet/like/promote those items? (Sean
says that Anita has a<br>
>> good social network, so maybe we can
exploit that.) + Can we<br>
>> personally invite friends, family and
enemies to attend the <br>
>> presentation? + We should let LeadNow
know that this presentation<br>
>> is happening. I can probably email Sylvie
if she is not already<br>
>> on this list. + We can let people know
this is happening via the<br>
>> announcement list.<br>
>> <br>
>> I am sure there are other promotional
ideas as well. We should<br>
>> not rest on our laurels about this.<br>
>> <br>
>> - We should not stop here. Having one
prominent organization<br>
>> agree to host a talk is good leverage for
convincing others. We<br>
>> should reach out to the libraries again.
It would also be great<br>
>> to hit up service clubs (Rotarians, Lions
Club), co-ops (we have<br>
>> had good success with housing co-ops in
the past), church groups,<br>
>> and maybe even the remaining electoral
district associations<br>
>> (even the Conservatives!).<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>>
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- -- <br>
<br>
<br>
- --<br>
Bob Jonkman <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
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Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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</p>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<a href="http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/">Laurel L. Russwurm,
Author</a> § <a href="http://about.me/laurelrusswurm">about.me</a>
§ <a href="http://libreleft.com">Libreleft Books</a>
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