<div dir="ltr">I agree, Dave. <div><br></div><div>Voters can use STV no problem, they can see what local reps they elected, most probably know it's proportional (they call it PR-STV). Good enough.<br><div><br></div><div>Since the MMP was implemented in NZ they've done assessments at different times of how much people understand MMP. I remember there are still quite a few people who don't understand that the party vote is more important than the constituency vote or how that works. I doubt many could explain the formula to award the list seats. Without ongoing explanations, if they have no good civics program in schools (like here) I'm sure they are always producing new voters who don't understand their system either but can still use it.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't think that a majority of people in Canada could explain how 39% of the vote can get 55% of the seats, and some don't understand even the basics of how our system works now, like whether their vote does anything. Some people think it works proportionally now - a good percentage - because it makes intuitive sense. Most have never thought of it. </div><div><br></div><div>A good number of people probably don't wonder how the milk hits the shelf in their grocery store, either, but they still buy it. </div><div><br></div><div>I saw a poll by Forum last year where 12% of people told them<i> we use the ranked ballot system now</i>. </div><div><br></div><div>Unless you've never voted, not sure how you could think that.</div><div><br></div><div>This idea that that there has to be this massive education program where people have to understand a voting system before change can go ahead (or enough people have to jump up and down and show how knowledgeable and excited they are about voting systems) is something politicians invent to prevent change. </div><div><br></div><div>It makes them sound very democratic while giving them the excuse they want to do nothing. </div><div><br></div><div><div>I betcha anything that Canada's had more electoral reform commissions than any OECD country now. </div></div><div><br></div><div>I don't want our government to wait until I or my neighbour is sufficiently educated or sufficiently excited to follow evidenced-based policy, make good decisions and implement fairer programs for anything else. Only a niche market understands or cares about ANY issue in depth, so based on that formula, nothing would get done. </div><div><br></div><div>Those standards of public understanding and engagement, for good reason, conveniently don't apply to anything else. </div><div><br></div><div>Anita</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Dave Arthur <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:arthurd23@bell.net" target="_blank">arthurd23@bell.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div>Just an addendum on the Republic of Ireland.</div>
<div>We were on a choir tour of parts of Ireland last summer and I felt our tour
guides were pretty knowledgeable.</div>
<div>I asked them about Ireland’s STV voting system.</div>
<div>While they agreed people were happy with the system, when I asked if most
citizens had a good understanding of exactly how STV works, they admitted many
don’t.</div>
<div>While most of us will admit the workings of most PR systems are more
complex than simple FPTP, that should not be an impediment to adopting PR.</div>
<div>Dave</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="anitann88@gmail.com">Anita
Nickerson</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 4, 2017 12:59 PM</div><span class="">
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org">FVC Waterloo Region
Discussion</a> </div>
</span><div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Trudeau spending the day with the Irish
Taoiseach</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline"><div><div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">This is entertaining :).
<div> </div>
<div>I'm working on a webinar for the end of May with a former Labour TD from
Ireland. I talked to her for about half hour on the phone and the neatest thing
is when you find out that all the good things you read and say about it works
are actually how it works :)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Since I became fascinated with the idea of PR-STV about a year ago, I am a
bit more aware of Ireland's politics. Last election they had an anomoly - time
since 1989 that they were unable to put together a majority (coalition)
government. About 60 days of negotiations (lots of drama, President threatening
to call a new election which would have fixed nothing). </div>
<div> </div>
<div>In the end they have a minority coalition government with 4 Independents in
the cabinet. For some reason I just love this because it's so OPPOSITE what we
have here. Our Liberal MPs I think can't imagine what would happen if they had
to work with THOSE people. This kind of situation would probably give some of
them nightmares. Better have a LOOONG study on how PR affects the "governance
ecosystem" - to use the phrase from the Liberal ERRE report. I think "governance
ecosystem" is code for: "How in the hell could I work with MPs from those other
parties?" </div>
<div> </div>
<div>And while this isn't normal for Ireland, it shows that politicians can get
creative and compromise and cooperate when they're pretty much out of other
options! </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Can you imagine 4 Independents in Cabinet <i>here</i>? (Or even a few
parties?). </div>
<div> </div>
<div>How would the one-man decision making work then? Oh, it wouldn't.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>How would the PMO Spin Machine work then? It wouldn't be quite so smooth or
to the benefit of just one party.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>With such a supposedly "unstable" goverment, how does anything get done now
in Ireland? Check this out:</div>
<div> </div>
<div><b><a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ireland-votes-divest-fossil-fuels-climate-change-world-first-country-parliament-renewable-energy-a7549121.html" target="_blank">http://www.independent.co.uk/<wbr>news/world/europe/ireland-<wbr>votes-divest-fossil-fuels-<wbr>climate-change-world-first-<wbr>country-parliament-renewable-<wbr>energy-a7549121.html</a><br></b></div>
<div> </div>
<div>And this bill was put forward and passed by a TD who ISN'T in even in the
minority coalition government, despite the big party in the coalition government
voting no.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Anita</div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:42 AM, Sharon Sommerville <span dir="ltr"><<a>sharonsommerville@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Stu,
<div> </div>
<div>Thanks for following up.<br>
<div> </div>
<div>I don't tweet, and not very conversant with how it works. I
would check the Government of Canada website info on MPs etc. I am
on my way out to an appointment with my mom or I would look it up and put it
out there.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>S.</div>
<div> </div></div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div class="m_6931982804773341589h5">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:17 AM, STUART CHANDLER <span dir="ltr"><<a>stuchandler43@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br></div></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<div>
<div class="m_6931982804773341589h5">
<div lang="en-US" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(255,255,255)">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;WIDTH:100%;COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(255,255,255)">Great
idea. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;WIDTH:100%;COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(255,255,255)">Please
provide the best twitter address to reach him. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;WIDTH:100%;COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(255,255,255)">Thanks.
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;WIDTH:100%;COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(255,255,255)">Stu
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;WIDTH:100%;COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(255,255,255)"></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(255,255,255)">Sent
from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.</div>
<table style="COLOR:#000000;BORDER-SPACING:0px;BACKGROUND-COLOR:white" width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(255,255,255)" colspan="2">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;BORDER-LEFT-STYLE:none;BORDER-TOP:rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma,'BB Alpha Sans','Slate Pro';BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE:none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-TOP:3pt;BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE:none;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in">
<div><b>From: </b>Sharon Sommerville</div>
<div><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, May 4, 2017 8:57 AM</div>
<div><b>To: </b><a>fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers<wbr>.org</a>; <a>FVCchapters@yahoogroups.com</a></div>
<div><b>Reply To: </b>FVC Waterloo Region Discussion</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b>[fvc-wat-disc] Trudeau spending the day with the
Irish Taoiseach</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table>
<div>
<div class="m_6931982804773341589m_5163956290833784726h5">
<div style="BORDER-LEFT-STYLE:none;BORDER-TOP:rgb(186,188,209) 1pt solid;BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE:none;BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE:none;BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(255,255,255)"></div>
<div> </div>
<div id="m_6931982804773341589m_5163956290833784726m_-4507788301455170687_originalContent">
<div dir="ltr">Good Morning Everyone,
<div> </div>
<div>Between 11 a.m and 2 :30pm today, the PM is at various functions with
the Irish Taoiseach (prime minister) Enda Kenny. Does anyone follow
the PM on twitter? Can anyone tweet the PM to suggest that he ask
Kenny about PR in Ireland We should keep it up all day if
possible.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Have a great day,</div>
<div>Sharon</div></div>
<div> </div></div></div></div></div>
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