<div dir="ltr">Kitchener and Waterloo city councils both voted no to AV - in Oct and in Feb.<div><br></div><div>FVC doesn't support AV anyway.<div><br></div><div>But we have some regional at-large seats that could use STV. Matthew Piggot and I met with a Kitchener or Waterloo city councillor (sorry, municipal is not my thing, I forget which one - ask Matthew) and she explained that to get STV for those seats, we'd have to campaign and convince EVERY city council in our local elections to go ranked ballot (AV - which two have already rejected) for the regional seats to come along for the ride, because it's all on the same ballot and she can't see how we could have FPTP for part of the vote and ranked for others. She reiterated this to me on facebook again the other day. It doesn't make sense to me why you can't have two voting systems on one ballot but anyway, I get the logic and think she's right. </div><div><br></div><div>I think someone will soon start 123WaterlooRegion outside of FVC.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm happy to stay out of that one.</div><div><br></div><div>Anita</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 11:54 AM, Jay Judkowitz <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:judkowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">judkowitz@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Thanks everyone for all the insights. Glad I'm not thinking outlandish thoughts. I hope I can contribute in some way.<div><br></div><div>As a side note, In Marwan's long and dismissive email, he suggested working locally instead of nationally. Seems defeatist to me, but there might be something to working locally <u><i>in addition</i></u> to nationally. Have we gotten any indications how Kitchener, Waterloo, and Cambridge govenments think about voting reform? London recently just chose ranked choice which is a nice first step.</div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Donald Fraser <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:donaldafraser@gmail.com" target="_blank">donaldafraser@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Welcome, Jay ... glad to have another warrior ... cheers, Don</div><div class="m_8945245485729972754HOEnZb"><div class="m_8945245485729972754h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 1 May 2017 at 14:25, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cdcampbell9@gmail.com" target="_blank">cdcampbell9@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);line-height:initial"><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">It would be most credible coming from an expert who (as far as I know) has not sought public office, like Professor Byron Becker. Bob Jonkman would be construed to have ulterior, sneaky political motives. </div><span> <p style="font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.</p> </span><table width="100%" style="background-color:white;border-spacing:0px"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="2" style="font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> <div id="m_8945245485729972754m_3647769064293013328m_-2135469732584540153_persistentHeader" style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;font-family:Tahoma,'BB Alpha Sans','Slate Pro';font-size:10pt"> <div><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:cdcampbell9@gmail.com" target="_blank">cdcampbell9@gmail.com</a></div><div><b>Sent: </b>Monday, May 1, 2017 2:07 PM</div><div><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers<wbr>.org</a>; Jennifer Ross; FVC Waterloo Region Discussion</div><div><div class="m_8945245485729972754m_3647769064293013328h5"><div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Arguing for PR</div></div></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div><div class="m_8945245485729972754m_3647769064293013328h5"><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(186,188,209);border-top-width:1pt;font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></div><br><div id="m_8945245485729972754m_3647769064293013328m_-2135469732584540153_originalContent"><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">At the Sunday afternoon meeting at St John's Kitchen, I said I thought that Bardish thinks PR will make it harder for minority ethnic and religious groups to win nominations and ridings. Bob said it would make it easier. I replied, someone should tell that to , Raj, Marwan and her.</div> <p style="font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.</p> <table width="100%" style="background-color:white;border-spacing:0px"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="2" style="font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> <div id="m_8945245485729972754m_3647769064293013328m_-2135469732584540153_persistentHeader" style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;font-family:Tahoma,'BB Alpha Sans','Slate Pro';font-size:10pt"> <div><b>From: </b>Dave Arthur</div><div><b>Sent: </b>Monday, May 1, 2017 1:31 PM</div><div><b>To: </b>Jennifer Ross; FVC Waterloo Region Discussion</div><div><b>Reply To: </b>FVC Waterloo Region Discussion</div><div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Arguing for PR</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(186,188,209);border-top-width:1pt;font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></div><br><div id="m_8945245485729972754m_3647769064293013328m_-2135469732584540153_originalContent">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div>Hi Jay and everyone.</div>
<div>We’re still hopeful that the campaigning and letter-writing will sway
enough Liberal MPs to vote to go with the ERRE recommendations at the end of
May.</div>
<div>It’s a long shot.</div>
<div>I have to believe most will vote the party line and with Justin’s
decision.</div>
<div>I think we all believe the Liberal promise was based on their vision that
the change would be to alternative vote/ranked ballot that would give them, the
centrist party, a huge advantage.</div>
<div>When that was rejected by ERRE witnesses and town hall meetings as
obviously self-serving, they looked for any way to avoid electoral reform.</div>
<div>Despite the fact that there was clear consensus for PR from witnesses and
Canadians who made themselves informed and attended the meetings, the Liberals
used the unfortunate fact that many Canadians were not interested, were
uninformed, or preferred our unfair system that gave their Liberal or
Conservative parties an advantage, to claim there was no consensus.</div>
<div>There is a reason Canada ranks low for voter turnout and for low percentage
of women in parliament (although it is showing some improvement).</div>
<div>Many of us have met with our local MPs.</div>
<div>I’ve met with Bardish twice and been very disappointed with her style of
engagement.</div>
<div>Chantal Hebert’s recent column in The Star hit it pretty well when she said
Bardish has perfected the art of giving unhelpful answers with a smile.</div>
<div>The responses to my presentation to her were defensive, completely
irrelevant and factually inaccurate.</div>
<div>When I mentioned that 90% of EU and OECD countries use PR, she said “We
shouldn’t change our system just because someone else does”.</div>
<div>When I mentioned that the Ontario Citizens’ Assembly recommended MMP in the
Ontario referendum ten years ago that lost, she said it was because “the voices
against the change did a better job than the voices for”.</div>
<div>This in spite of the fact that polls at the time showed 50% of Ontarians
didn’t know what the referendum was about and 70% didn’t know what MMP
was.</div>
<div>This was in part due to the McGuinty government’s total failure in
publicizing the issue or educating Ontarians.</div>
<div>When I explained my great disappointment that they broke their promise and
that, unless they demonstrate continuation of working toward reforming our
voting system, I will not vote Liberal or campaign as I did with Leadnow in the
last election, she said “Is that a threat?”</div>
<div>It’s difficult committing to one party. The Conservatives are no
longer “progressive”.</div>
<div>The Liberals have not yet delivered.</div>
<div>The Chretien Liberals signed onto the Earth Summit’s Kyoto Protocol in 1992
and then for 14 years did absolutely nothing.</div>
<div>It’s interesting that some years ago the Sierra Club under Elizabeth May
named Brian Mulroney Canada’s most environmental PM following the international
and successful Montreal Protocol banning CFCs.</div>
<div>With PR I believe Green support would jump considerably from the almost 10%
support they received in 2008 (which under FPTP won zero seats).</div>
<div>Anyway, let’s keep doing what we can to move electoral reform along.</div>
<div>Dave A</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="anitann88@gmail.com">Anita
Nickerson</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 1, 2017 12:19 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="jenn@jenniferross.ca">Jennifer Ross</a> ; <a title="fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org">FVC Waterloo Region Discussion</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Arguing for PR</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><font color="#000000"><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px">Hi Jay! Please do keep
engaging with your MP and ask other people to do the same thing. On May 31 they
can be heroes but to say they need a bit of a push is an
understatement.</span></font></div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#990000">
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#990000"><br></font></span></div>People are doing the opposite of walking
away, I mean to say. </font></span><br>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#990000"><br></font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#000000">After Harper won his
majority, that day in 2011 - everyone knowing that basically for four years
there was no hope of anything happening - we had thousands of emails to FVC with
people wanting to get involved. When something's unfair, when parties abuse
their power, it makes people realize something's seriously wrong.
</font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#000000"><br></font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#000000">One thing with the
election promise and then the ERRE consultations is the government gave all our
folks REAL HOPE - first they promised - and many PR supporters voted or
campaigned for them - then they told us to show up here and here and here and
we'll listen to you, all the while Trudeau repeating they were
committed.<br><br>People<i> invested their <b>time </b>in this in good
faith.</i> When you invest your time in something, you get to care about it a
bit more. People showed up at the town hall, the ERRE consultation, the
Minister's tour. They wrote letters, they send long submissions to the ERRE
committee on what they wanted and why and talked about isn't it great that you
are doing this because they were told over and over that their feedback
mattered. </font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#000000"><br></font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#000000">If the Liberals had just
quietly walked away from their promise on October 20, 2015, as most people
expected them to do, as most governments with a 39% majority would do, we
wouldn't see what Jenn is talking about now. </font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#000000"><br></font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#000000">But because Trudeau kept
the game going so long and with such intensity, a core of people really got
personally <i>involved </i>so when Trudeau suddenly pulled the plug he fired up
a community that is now somewhere between disgusted and furious at being used
and lied to. </font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#000000"><br></font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#000000">A community with a
<i>long </i>memory.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#000000"><br></font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#000000">Anita</font></span></div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 11:55 PM, Jennifer Ross <span dir="ltr"><<a>2jennross@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi, Jay. Welcome to the movement (and the country!)<br><br></div>I
am a Liberal. I have tried each of those arguments many times; they sure
make sense to me, and they made some sense to my Liberal friends prior to
around October of 2016. After all, Sharon and I only wrote the
"important" part of Resolution 31 (the policy that brought about the election
platform on Electoral Reform); we couldn't have passed it through the policy
gauntlet by ourselves and without buy-in from the membership, and particularly
from the caucus.<br><br></div>But, in a telling reason why we need PR to end
hyper-partisanship, most Liberal rank and file no longer want to hear it, and
Liberal MPs will "engage" with you without actually paying any attention to
you. In fact, Francis Scarpaleggia actually said, out loud and during a
press conference "platform promises are just a way to engage with
Canadians." That's not what I was doing when I was helping our Liberals
win government, I can assure you! I was highlighting the
<u><i><b>promise</b></i></u>.<br><br>Oh, and non-engagement of Canadian
citizenry translates to they don't want to change the voting system, not that
they are so non-engaged they don't even know other options are
available. Or an understanding of what we have now for that
matter. Or they don't feel they know enough about the options that they
should weigh in on the decision-making (which I think is the
majority).<br><br></div>
<div>Maybe hearing about it from someone new will be helpful, particularly if
you have some lived experience or a different perspective to inform your
conclusions. Telling the story as to why you've come to believe it, as
it were.<br></div>
<div> </div>But, we don't give up because I'm the Treasurer of Fair Vote
Canada, and am right now going through our membership list for reasons that
aren't important to the discussion. And I am totally blown away by the
number of members whose membership had lapsed and they renewed after December
1st (when the Report of the ERRE came down) and the new members who signed up
after February 1st (when Justin Trudeau pulled the plug on electoral
reform). People are doing the opposite of walking away, I mean to
say. <br><br></div>We even have two members who DIED and whose family is
still paying their membership dues. That is how important this issue is
to some. So for those dear friends as well as everyone still fighting
for the cause, please do all of it. :)<br><br></div>The Record is good
and we get our fair share of letters these days, I think. Even better
are the Township papers who actually support PR (which you'd think would be
the other way around but there we are). But you need to be a rural
person to be published by them, I think. Then there's the Waterloo
Chronicle and the Kitchener Post, which we don't tend to concentrate on so
they may be ripe for the picking. <b>We do have a letter writing group
and I hope someone else tells you more about that.</b><br><br></div>Where are
you from? Because if there is a diaspora in the Region also from that
country or region, it would be most valuable to connect with them and offer a
PR 101 course for Canada (don't worry, we have people who are experts to do
it).<br><br></div>Thanks so much for stepping on board!<br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div class="m_8945245485729972754m_3647769064293013328m_-2135469732584540153h5">On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 11:17 PM, Jay Judkowitz <span dir="ltr"><<a>judkowitz@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br></div></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<div>
<div class="m_8945245485729972754m_3647769064293013328m_-2135469732584540153h5">
<div dir="ltr">Fairvote folks,
<div> </div>
<div> As someone new to the area and the country, I
am wondering what the best way is to argue the case for PR and where we
should be arguing it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> I have mailed my MP, Mr. Tabbara, and received
a long form letter in return that I'm sure most of you have seen (they did
not even put my name on it and called me "Diana"). I replied to his
mail, but am not anticipating a personalized engagement.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> Letters to the editor can get some
visibility. What publications would you suggest I write to?</div>
<div> </div>
<div> What about opposing organizations?
Is there any group in particular who it would be worthwhile to engage with
to try and change their mind through open and honest discourse?</div>
<div> </div>
<div> As for arguments that would work and
would not work, I am trying to put myself in the position of the Liberals
since the Liberals are the ones with the power to make or break PR right
now. And, in that mindset, there are three arguments that make sense
to me.</div>
<div>
<ol>
<li>Liberals have complete power now which is great, but it was only a
short time ago when they had no power. Conservatives ruled for 10
years while they waited. Wouldn't they want some say all the time
rather than no say for a decade at a time.
</li><li>PR is a huge benefit to the party in the middle of a system with 3
relatively popular parties. Even when they can not just dictate
policy, they can partner to the left or the right to make policy on any
given issue. It would seem that PR would benefit them the most of
any party in the long term.
</li><li>It's scary to let a party with 39% of the vote get 100% of the
power. Imagine a situation like the US. Let's say 15% of
Canadians (and I'm just making up that number) are really fed up with
things and vehemently support a right wing demagogue like Trump and that
demagogue manages to become the Conservative Party leader. Let's say
at the same time the Liberals and/or NDP falter due to scandal, a bad
candidate, an economic downturn, a terrorist attack, etc... In
that situation, it's not hard to imagine another 24% of Canadians holding
their nose and voting for the Conservatives led by that demagogue.
They hit the 39% of the votes, get the 51% of the seats and 100% of the
power. This does not seem like a likely event for any given
election, but seems to be a certainty to happen eventually (based on the
math and probability, not based on any notion I have of Canadian
preferences). Wouldn't the Liberals want to do anything to
prevent this sort of scenario from being even possible? I know the
counter argument to this is that the right wing radicals would always be
represented in a PR scenario, but I'd rather that they always have small
representation and continually expose themselves than that they can lie in
wait and eventually win a stunning victory like what happened in the US in
November.</li></ol>
<div> Please let me know your thoughts on (a)
where we should be making the case and (b) your thoughts on the case I'm
making.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Jay</div>
<div> </div></div></div>
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