<div dir="ltr">Agreed, Dave. <div><br></div><div>It's the same with MMP. There are a sizable number of people in NZ, Scotland and Wales - probably more so in the latter two - who do not understand how the constituency and list seats are counted, the importance of the party list vote relative to the constituency vote (which is kinda crucial) and <b>HOW </b>those two votes result in the outcome in the legislature. </div><div><br></div><div>That doesn't stop them from being able to use the system effectively.<br><br>The biggest problem has been in Wales where the issue of dual candidacy has become - from what I've read so far in about four articles - a rather nasty partisan struggle since 1999 with a mostly confused electorate (most of whom don't follow the issue at all anyway) and the big parties allowing it, allowing it but one of the big parties not doing it to make the other party who relies mostly on list seats look bad, banning it, then allowing it again and now they're all using it. Culture takes time to change...<br><br>The bland academic perspective on voter comprehension of MMP counting in Scotland and Wales (and many other things related to the transition to MMP):<br><br><b><a href="http://www.victoria.ac.nz/law/centres/nzcpl/publications/nz-journal-of-public-and-international-law/previous-issues/volume-71,-june-2009/bradbury.pdf">http://www.victoria.ac.nz/law/centres/nzcpl/publications/nz-journal-of-public-and-international-law/previous-issues/volume-71,-june-2009/bradbury.pdf</a><br></b><br>"<i>Equally, there is evidence that many voters do not fully understand how the electoral systems work, leading to confusion over how to use
the party list vote. In Scotland there is considerable evidence that many voters see the second vote, which helps to determine the allocation of regional list seats, as a second preference vote.
<br><br>Equally, there is widespread lack of understanding as to how these second votes influence the overall electoral outcome of an election. The 2007 Scottish election suffered particular problems when the first and second votes were joined together on one ballot paper and the election was held
simultaneously with local government elections. The number of rejected ballot papers was unusually
high at just over 4 per cent for constituency votes and just under 3 per cent for regional list votes.<br><br>In addition, in both Scotland and Wales there have been claims that voters do not understand how
defeated constituency candidates have been able to be elected as list representatives. Since the
Government of Wales Act 2006 (UK) this is no longer possible in Wales, but in Scotland this can
still occur. <br><br>Consequently, while MMP has received a generally favourable reaction from the electorate, there have been problems in both understanding and implementation in Scotland and Wales. The
public are aware of how MMP has underpinned changes in party representation after elections; has
given rise to new dynamics for executive formation that have made coalition and minority
governments more common; has created some changes in the kinds of people who represent them;
and has created Parliament/Assembly arithmetic in which opposition parties can influence policy.</i>"<br><br>In Ireland, they had a Citizens Assembly in 2013 - it was 66 citizens and 34 TDs. They looked at whether to replace PR-STV with MMP. </div><div><br></div><div>They opted to keep PR-STV - 79 for STV, 20 for MMP, 1 abstention. <br><br>Overall, citizens in Ireland are happy with their electoral system,<i> even if they don't fully understand how the counting works after the fact.</i></div><div><br></div><div>Not because it's not understandable, but mainly because most people don't care enough to look into it. I suspect it's the same in Scotland and Wales.<div><br>People know how to use it.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Most of them get the basic idea that it creates fairer results and coalition/minoirty governments rather than one party governments.</div><div><br></div><div>In Ireland the public sees this as a GOOD THING (my favourite new poster - "One Party Government - no thanks!" I borrowed from an Irish election). I betcha in Germany it's the same thing. </div><div><br></div><div>In Scotland and Wales I would <i>guess </i>because MMP is so much newer there and because they ALSO vote with FPTP for Westminster elections and are therefore still heavily immersed in that political culture, that the feelings towards coalitions are more mixed.</div><div><br></div><div><b>I long ago concluded that as passionate as we are about this, we're fighting for something that most people are never going to understand because they have other things to do with their lives. <br></b><br>That's the same with any policy. </div><div><br></div><div>That doesn't make it any less important. </div><div><br></div><div>In some ways, the fact that so many people are tuned out of politics makes PR even more important.</div><div><br></div><div>Anita</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Dave Arthur <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:arthurd23@bell.net" target="_blank">arthurd23@bell.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div>I’ve mentioned to a number of people that, during our choir tour in Ireland
last summer, I asked our guides, who were pretty savvy, if most Irish voters
understood the mechanics of STV.</div>
<div>They said no. However, it is apparent that they still like the system and
probably wouldn’t want it changed.</div>
<div>Dave A</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="anitann88@gmail.com">Anita
Nickerson</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 28, 2017 5:29 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org">FVC Waterloo Region
Discussion</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Annual General Meeting: Wed, 21 June
2017</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline"><div><div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">In future, now that these exec positions are so popular :), we
could use the Opavote program to run the election like we do for our FVC council
election. Carshare uses STV, too - could ask them how they do it.
<br><br>Probably people would have to say in advance that they were running and
then people get an online link to vote. <br><br>But probably with a small group
(not that many ballots) there is a program easy enough that you could vote at
the meeting and someone could just plug in the rankings from the papers right
into the program.
<div> </div>
<div>I think it's actually pretty neat that people there could see the piles of
ballots being transferred. <br><br>It took me a long time to get interested in
PR-STV (now my favourite system:) because I thought it was too complicated to
explain. A simple demonstration like this makes all the difference and can
improve the confidence of volunteers in talking about PR.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Anita</div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Bob Jonkman <span dir="ltr"><<a>bjonkman@sobac.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex"><span>-----BEGIN
PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>Hash: SHA1<br><br></span>I was hoping no-one would
ask that :-) We shuffled the ballots<br>before the first count,
hoping for a random distribution of votes;<br>since Sharon's pile was built
randomly the second choices should have<br>been distributed
randomly.<br><br>Yes, an arithmetical approach would have been ideal. And with
a large<br>enough number of ballots, the results of a random selection of
7/9th<br>of the ballots should closely approximate the arithmetical result.
But<br>with only 11 ballots cast it is possible that selecting a
different<br>set of 7 may have had different results.<br><br>It would have
been more significant if there were more nominees vying<br>for a small number
of positions. As it turns out, even Shannon Adshade<br>is happy with the
result, so I hope no-one contests the election results.<br><br>I did try to
explain the surplus vote selection to a couple of people<br>who asked later in
the evening. With a larger attendance at the AGM<br>there would also have been
questions about determining the quota ("Why<br>not a Hare quota?", "Why not
use the 'ceiling((votes+1)/(seats+1))'<br>Droop quota?"), and concerns about
adherence to Condorcet outcomes...<br><br>- --Bob<br><span><br><br>On
2017-06-28 04:30 PM, Jay Judkowitz wrote:<br>> OK, I'll be that
guy...<br>><br>> How did you decide which 7 of 9 we're Sharon's extra
ballots?<br>><br>> In reality would you have counted all 9 2nd place
votes and<br>> multiplied the totally by .78?<br>><br>> On Tue, Jun
27, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Bob Jonkman <<a>bjonkman@sobac.com</a>><br>>
wrote:<br>><br></span>
<div>
<div class="m_-6392922710407623348h5">> Hi everyone: Kevin Smith hasn't yet released the minutes of
this<br>> year's AGM, but I do want to announce that Cathy Scott has
been<br>> newly elected to the Fair Vote Waterloo Executive as a<br>>
Member-At-Large.<br>><br>> I want to thank Shannon Adshade, one of the
founders of Fair Vote<br>> Waterloo, who has served on the Executive every
year since we<br>> started in 2006! This year other commitments are keeping
Shannon<br>> busy, so we're finally letting him off the
hook.<br>><br>> There were five Executive positions to be filled, and
six nominees.<br>> This is the first time since 2006 that we had to
have an election<br>> for the executive, so we held an election using
Single<br>> Transferable Vote. Members at the AGM placed nominees' names on
the<br>> ballot in order of preference, from 1 to 6. There were 12
ballots<br>> cast, but as returning Co-chair I withheld my ballot, to be
used in<br>> case of a tie. David Dolson and I were the "returning
officers" to<br>> count the ballots.<br>><br>> How many votes would
it take to elect a nominee? We calculated the<br>> "Droop Quota" --
the number of ballots cast divided by the<br>>
number-of-positions-plus-one, rounded down to an integer, plus<br>>
one[*].<br>><br>><br>> Droop Quota = int(ballots / (positions+1))
+1<br>><br>> = int(11 / (5+1)) +1 = int(11 / 6) +1 = int(1.8) +1 =
2<br>><br>> We placed the ballots in piles based on the first choice of
each<br>> ballot. Cathy Scott received two ballots, Sharon
Sommerville<br>> received nine, so both get a position on the board. The
seven<br>> surplus ballots for Sharon were then re-distributed based on
the<br>> second choice on each ballot:<br>><br>> Kevin Smith: 2 Mo
Markham: 2 Donald Fraser: 2 Shannon Adshade: 1<br>><br>> So, our
2017-2018 Executive is elected! Sharon will resume the<br>> position of
Co-Chair, and Kevin Smith resumes the position of<br>> Secretary, both
two-year terms. Aden Seaman continues his second<br>> year as Treasurer,
and I'm in the second year as Co-chair, with<br>> Mo, Donald, and Cathy
serving one-year terms as Members-At-Large.<br>><br>> Thanks to all who
came out, and for the opportunity to "eat our own<br>> dogfood" -- a
computer industry term for actually using the<br>> things we build, or in
our case, using the principles we advocate.<br>><br></div></div>
<div>
<div class="m_-6392922710407623348h5">> --Bob.<br>><br>><br>> [*] Droop Quota: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droop_quota" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Droop_quota</a><br>><br>><br>>
On 2017-06-18 11:09 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote:<br>>>>> Hi everyone:
Just a quick reminder of our AGM this<br>>>>>
Wednesday.<br>>>>><br>>>>> I'm making the reservation
at ERK Monday evening. The Egg<br>>>>> Roll King Restaurant is a
small place; if you're coming<br>>>>> please let us know by
registering at<br>>>>> <a href="http://fairvotewrc.ca/?p=3834" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://fairvotewrc.ca/?p=3834</a> (but nobody
will be turned away<br>>>>> at the
door!)<br>>>>><br>>>>> So far there has been one
advance nomination for the<br>>>>> Executive; please let me know
if you'd like to nominate<br>>>>> someone (or yourself).
Nominations will also take place at<br>>>>> the meeting itself.
You can also let me know if you want to<br>>>>> appoint a proxy
for your vote.<br>>>>><br>>>>> * Nominated: Shannon
Adshade<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>> See you
Wednesday!<br>>>>><br>>>>> --Bob Jonkman Co-Chair,
Fair Vote Waterloo<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>>
On 2017-06-08 11:16 AM, Bob Jonkman wrote:<br>>>>>> Hi
everyone: Summer approaches, and it's time for the<br>>>>>>
Annual General Meeting of the Fair Vote Canada
Waterloo<br>>>>>> Region Chapter. Everyone is welcome to
attend, and paid-up<br>>>>>> members can vote and run for a
position on the Executive<br>>>>>>
Board.<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>>> *What*:
Fair Vote Waterloo Annual General Meeting *When*:<br>>>>>>
Wednesday, 21 June 2017 from 7:00pm to 9:00pm (6:00pm<br>>>>>>
dinner) *Where*: Egg Roll King Restaurant *Location*:
85<br>>>>>> Courtland Avenue East, Kitchener, Ontario
*Map*:<br>>>>>> <a href="https://osm.org/go/ZXnwS2Cx--?m=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://osm.org/go/ZXnwS2Cx--?<wbr>m=</a><br>>>>><br>>>>>>
== Agenda ==<br>>>>><br>>>>>> 1) Review and
acceptance of minutes from 2016
AGM<br>>>>><br>>>>>> 2) Report from the Co-Chair
and Chapter Co-ordinator,<br>>>>>> Sharon
Sommerville<br>>>>><br>>>>>> 3) Treasurer's
Report<br>>>>><br>>>>>> 4) Old business * Outreach
program * Letter Writing Team<br>>>>><br>>>>>> 4)
Election of Fair Vote Waterloo Executive Board * All<br>>>>>>
paid-up members of Fair Vote Canada are eligible to
stand<br>>>>>> for nomination; only paid-up members can vote.
Memberships<br>>>>>> can be paid at the meeting ($25/year, $10
for first year)<br>>>>><br>>>>>> * Proxy votes and
self-nominations are allowed. You can<br>>>>>> nominate
yourself even if you can't come to the meeting.<br>>>>>> E-mail
me if you can't come, but want to
run.<br>>>>><br>>>>>> * Three to Five members to be
elected; they will choose<br>>>>>> amongst themselves which
positions to fill: ** Co-Chair (2<br>>>>>> year term) **
Secretary (2 year term) ** 1 - 3 Members at<br>>>>>> Large (1
year term) ** The second Co-Chair (Bob Jonkman)<br>>>>>> and
Treasurer (Aden Seaman) will complete the second year<br>>>>>>
of their two-year term. 5) New Business * Summer
Festivals<br>>>>>> - volunteers
needed!<br>>>>><br>>>>>> 6)
Announcements<br>>>>><br>>>>>> 7)
Adjournment<br>>>>><br>>>>>> 8)
Discussion<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>>> ==
Registration ==<br>>>>><br>>>>>> Registration is
optional, but will help with the<br>>>>>> reservation at the
restaurant.<br>>>>><br>>>>>> Register
at:<br>>>>><br>>>>>> <a href="http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/event/fair-vote-waterloo-" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/even<wbr>t/fair-vote-waterloo-</a><br>>
annual-general-meeting-for-201<wbr>7/#registration<br>>>>><br>>>>>>
The AGM will start at 7:00pm, but please join us for<br>>>>>>
dinner at 6:00pm -- ERK has a small kitchen, and good
food<br>>>>>> takes time to
prepare.<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>>> --Bob
Jonkman <<a>bjonkman@sobac.com</a>> Co-Chair, Fair
Vote<br>>>>>>
Waterloo<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>>>
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<<a>bjonkman@sobac.com</a>>
Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-519-635-9413" value="+15196359413" target="_blank">+1-519-635-9413</a><br>SOBAC Microcomputer
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