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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>I think a good project would be to look back at federal and provincial elections and dig out the most distorted vote % / seat % examples there have ever been.</p><p class=MsoNormal>Maybe I’ll take that on.</p><p class=MsoNormal>Dave A</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:cdcampbell9@gmail.com">Catherine Campbell</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, June 5, 2018 3:32 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:daviddirks@rogers.com">David dirks</a>; <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org">FVC Waterloo Region Discussion</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Even NDP win won't stop Ford</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Remember the federal general election of 1993. Two seats for the Progressive Conservatives despite all the PC voters across Canada. I can’t remember the PC percent of the popular vote. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On Jun 5, 2018, at 2:51 PM, David dirks <<a href="mailto:daviddirks@rogers.com">daviddirks@rogers.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1528223926022_18924"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On a personal note, I have had people who would not otherwise talk of PR, speaking to me now in anticipation of the outcome. W BC, PEI and PQ we may be able to move the needle in the future.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1528223926022_19005"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1528223926022_19006"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>David<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 2:48 PM, Jay Judkowitz <<a href="mailto:judkowitz@gmail.com">judkowitz@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div id=yiv1664290230><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>This chart is horrifying. From 20% of the vote down to <1% of seats is the most lopsided outcome I've ever seen. Sure the Liberal leadership did this to themselves, but that does not change the terrible outcome for 20% of Ontario voters. I hope it does not roll out this way, but hopefully, it (plus the almost certain failure of a Ford regime) can be used as a motivation for change.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div id=yiv1664290230yqt29885><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 2:32 PM Evan Rosamond <<a href="mailto:erosamond@worldline.ca" target="_blank">erosamond@worldline.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Sharon, you are right about Erin Kelly's non-explanation of Poli. I think she's got a lot of virtual voters running around inside a VLC (very large computer), but I could be wrong. At any rate, Artificial Intelligence is cool, partly because nobody can understand it. However, Poli's forecasts seem to agree pretty closely with Eric Grenier's, so maybe there's some accuracy there.<br><br>Eleanor, yes we do need PR because of that 'efficiency' thing. I find the term misleading. It seems to make a case that odd results are OK because of something virtuous that the parties have done. There is no truth to that. Here's an explanation of efficiency using numbers from Grenier's poll tracker this afternoon.<o:p></o:p></span></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0><tr style='height:12.75pt'><td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal><u>Party</u><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=106 style='width:79.5pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><u>Popular Vote </u><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=136 style='width:102.0pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><u>Proportional Seats</u><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=121 style='width:90.75pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><u>Projected Seats</u><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=120 style='width:1.25in;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><u>Power of a Vote</u><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr style='height:12.75pt'><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>NDP<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>0.361<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>45<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>48<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>1.067<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr style='height:12.75pt'><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>PC<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>0.376<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>47<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>74<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>1.574<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr style='height:12.75pt'><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Lib<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>0.199<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>25<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>2<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>0.080<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr style='height:13.5pt'><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:13.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Grn<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:13.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>0.050<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:13.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>6<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:13.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>0<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:13.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>0.000<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr style='height:13.5pt'><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:13.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Oth<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:13.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>0.014<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:13.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>2<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:13.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>0<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:13.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>0.000<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr style='height:12.75pt'><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>1.000<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>124<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'>124<o:p></o:p></p></td><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:12.75pt'></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>The Power of a Vote column is the ratio of Projected/Elected Seats to Proportional Seats. This represents the relative power of a single vote for each party. So the PCs stand to gain a 57% bonus. This is said to be efficient because PC votes are spread across the province fairly evenly. But look at the Liberals. They also have spread out votes, but 92% of them won't count.<br><br>Evan<br><br><br>On 6/4/2018 11:21 PM, Sharon Sommerville wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Thank you Eleanor. The interview is certainly enlightening & discouraging. If this election produces a "Wrong winner" government, some people will begin to understand that the electoral system delivered the Ford win, not the voters. Cold comfort but may, in the long run, be helpful for some to finally recognize that electoral reform as an important necessity. <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Ms. Kelly spoke about the kind of issue that might affect Ford's support in the last 6 days of the election; could Renate Ford's lawsuit be that issue? Perhaps in combination with the PC candidate who is being accused of threatening 19 Tamils in his riding? Or am I grasping desperately at straws? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>And despite Ms. Kelly's explanation I don't understand how Poli works and how accurate has Poli's projections proven to be in recent elections? Traditional polls have proven themselves to be unreliable of late.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Hopefully yours,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Sharon<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 5:28 PM, Eleanor Grant <<a href="mailto:eleanor7000@gmail.com" target="_blank">eleanor7000@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Hello Fair Voters: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Have you been watching poll analyst Erin Kelly on TVO The Agenda? She claims that even if the NDP wins the popular vote, there will still be a Ford majority of 20 seats because of the efficiency of the PC vote. People aren't grasping this! <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>See if this link works for Erin's June 1 interview with Steve Paikin:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> <a href="https://t.co/c2DI3YFzMw?amp=1" target="_blank"><span style='color:#4285F4'>https://t.co/c2DI3YFzMw?amp=1</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>It's a must-see. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I'm imagining the rage Ontarians will feel Friday morning if NDP is solidly ahead in popular vote but we're stuck with Ford for 4 yrs. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>NDP would have to be 5+ points ahead of PCs to win. Why we need PR. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Eleanor <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<br>Post a message: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>Unsubscribe: <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a></span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Post a message: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Unsubscribe: <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<br>Post a message: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>Unsubscribe: <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div><div id=yqt69107><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<br>Post a message: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>Unsubscribe: <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<br>This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<br>Post a message: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>Unsubscribe: <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>