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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72" style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Good letter Kevin.</p><p class=MsoNormal>Does the Star say 150 limit?</p><p class=MsoNormal>In the past with the KW Record I’ve gone over a bit and it’s been accepted.</p><p class=MsoNormal>You could try.</p><p class=MsoNormal>Dave A</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a> for Windows</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:kevedsmith@gmail.com">Kevin Smith</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, September 30, 2021 5:19 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org">FVC Waterloo Region Discussion</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=gmail-p1 style='margin:0in'><b><span style='font-size:15.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'>Hi folks:</span></b><span style='font-size:15.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p1 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-size:15.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p1 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><b><span style='font-size:15.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'>Here's my draft. 194 words. Do I really need to trim it to 150? Any feedback?</span></b><span style='font-size:15.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p1 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-size:15.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p1 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><b><span style='font-size:15.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'>Kevin.</span></b><span style='font-size:15.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p1 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-size:15.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p1 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><b><span style='font-size:15.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'>First Past the Post does not protect us</span></b><span style='font-size:15.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p2 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p2 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'>To the editor:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p3 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;min-height:15px'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p2 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'>Bob Hepburn argues that Maxime Bernier’s PPC Party shows the folly of Proportional Representation.<span class=gmail-apple-converted-space> </span>However, we’ve seen how close we came to having Maxime Bernier as Prime Minister under First Past the Post.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p3 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;min-height:15px'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p2 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'>Andrew Sheer beat Maxime Bernier by 50.95% to 49.05% on the final ballot of the 2017 leadership vote.<span class=gmail-apple-converted-space> </span>A change of one percentage point could have given us our very own Donald Trump-like figure leading that party.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p3 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;min-height:15px'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p2 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'>In 2019, with First Past the Post and as little as 3% more of the vote, the Conservatives would be able to win majority government with 100% of the power.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p3 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;min-height:15px'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p2 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'>So while PR could give a right-wing demagogue a voice in parliament, as every party with sufficient support would have, first-past-the-post could have made him Prime Minister with a minority of votes but a majority of seats.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p3 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;min-height:15px'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-p2 style='margin:0in;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif'>Let’s face it.<span class=gmail-apple-converted-space> </span>Any party with 5% support stands a chance of winning seats in parliament in any system. With Proportional Representation, we have greater party choice, better representation, and parties that need to work together, and have less incentive to pull the plug and have elections like the one we just had.<span class=gmail-apple-converted-space> </span>Far from folly, Bob.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 4:31 PM Dave Arthur <<a href="mailto:arthurd23@bell.net">arthurd23@bell.net</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thank you Anita. This is a very important topic.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The linked article that Anita included is very much worth reading.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>We need to make the case that the results of our election in FPTP with low voter turnout, strategic voting, and all the covid polarization tinged with the populism that seems to be happening in many countries does not forecast what would happen with PR. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>In fact, PR would likely improve voter turnout, eliminate strategic voting, and reduce the effects of polarization and populism.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Much of that would result from the increased cooperation of parties and a reduced toxic environment in our parliament.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The Green vote would certainly increase to its past performance of more than the 5% threshold and mean considerably more than 2 seats.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The PPC vote would very likely decrease and not meet the 5% threshold in addition to not likely electing anyone as was the case this time.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>One of the points I always make to people concerned about the fringe and single issue parties gaining influence is that in the last election, we had 14 such parties who together got less than 1% of the votes.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>We still have a job to do to counter the effect of the PPC.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>That could certainly include a letter to the Star.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dave A</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" target="_blank">Mail</a> for Windows</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:anitann88@gmail.com" target="_blank">Anita Nickerson</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, September 30, 2021 1:01 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">FVC Waterloo Region Discussion</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star</p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Please write to the Star! <br><br>Yes, the PPC is costing us supporters. </p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>People are seeing those charts of 17-21 seats everywhere. It is costing us our own supporters - the many soft supporters, not the core long time people like you - and "the public". There is no doubt. I see it everywhere. <br><br>I'm not really convinced that valiantly arguing that the PPC getting 21 seats because they "deserve" it, that's "better democracy", when they were basically a one-issue party this election for people who think blocking hospitals is great, is a winner with the people we need to convince. We may be democratically and morally and technically correct, but we're only convincing ourselves by focusing on that. <br><br>There is no great argument that can defeat an EMOTIONAL knee-jerk fear people have of "extremists in Parliament." Logic does not overcome emotion. We have been thoroughly defeated on that field before.<br><br><b>Nevertheless, do try to give people something else to think about and focus on! <br></b><br>Like yes, remind people that Bernier sat in cabinet and came with 1.7% of winning the Con leadership. </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Then these folks who are terrified of having a few isolated PPC in a corner of Parliament could have a Bernier running the country on 33% of the vote. That's a realistic fear - that we can address now with electoral reform now - or wait until it's staring us in the face, at which point it becomes much more difficult.<br><br>A PR system for Canada WOULD NOT deliver the PPC 17 or 21 seats. Here is the reality:<br><br><a href="https://www.fairvote.ca/2021/09/22/simulationssmallparties/" target="_blank">https://www.fairvote.ca/2021/09/22/simulationssmallparties/</a></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Milder numbers may take a dent of the fear, but won't remove it. For many people one PPC seat is too many and makes them think they'd rather stick with "the devil they know".</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The best tactic is likely to focus on the glaring flaws and consequences of our FPTP system for everyone. </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>$600,000,000 early elections. </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Governments with 32.6% support who try to cooperate with others as little as humanly possible, when what we need are parties to cooperate to tackle issues that can only be solved by "all hands on deck" like climate change action. </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>25/25 seats in the City of Toronto going Lib and 14/14 in SK going Con - leaving NO VOICE for those with any other values. </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The vast majority who again elected nobody and the massive disengagement that is causing as voter turnout plummeted to 59%. </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Are we going to let fear of a handful of purple seats frighten us from solving those very big problems?</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>PLEASE WRITE TO THE STAR. So they see a LOT of people pushing back. </b>Much better than talking to each other on this list!</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Anita</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 7:08 AM stuchandler43 <<a href="mailto:stuchandler43@gmail.com" target="_blank">stuchandler43@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>It doesn't take a genius to see through Bob Hepburn's bombastic blather about how scary PR is. It is truly unfortunate that he uses his position of "journalist" as a bully pulpit to spread his stupidity with such perceived authority. </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>His piece contains the information necessary to refute his useless fear of Max Bernier and the PPC, who he claims would create havic with the 25 seats they may have gained under PR. 25 seats out of 338 would only be of influence if the Conservatives got about 160 seats, and needed the PPC to pass legislation. With all the polls of public opinion in Canada indicating that Canadians are overwhelmingly progressive politically, there is zero likelihood of that happening under PR. But it could happen under FPTP (!!!!!), which could allow the CPC to "win" enough seats with 30% of the votes (let's say) to gain a minority close enough to half that the few seats Bernier <i>might </i>get (in this hypothetical case) could allow them to form a coalition government capable of passing legislation. </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>So, once again, PR proves it's better than FPTP since such a scenario is <b><i>much </i></b>less likely to happen with a PR Electoral system.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Moreover, under FPTP, Justin has just been showing us how easy it is for his minority Liberal party to ignore most of what the NDP wants because he's been pretty sure the NDP will prop the Liberals up rather than risk forcing an election that might allow the Conservatives to gain power. (Only Justin was stupid enough to risk that fate!!)</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Ain't politics Fun?</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Cheerio </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Stu</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div id="gmail-m_-6375882236679158998gmail-m_-3318084747394694843composer_signature"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:9.5pt;color:#575757'>Sent from my Galaxy</span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>-------- Original message --------</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>From: Kevin Smith <<a href="mailto:kevedsmith@gmail.com" target="_blank">kevedsmith@gmail.com</a>> </span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>Date: 2021-09-30 2:13 a.m. (GMT-05:00) </span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <<a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a>> </span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'>Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star </span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Things have gotten quiet apparently from the progressives calling for PR,, since the PPC would have been the main benefactor of it in this last election.</p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2021/09/29/max-bernier-and-the-folly-of-electoral-reform.html" target="_blank">https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2021/09/29/max-bernier-and-the-folly-of-electoral-reform.html</a></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Kevin.</p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>_______________________________________________<br>This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<br>Post a message: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>Unsubscribe: <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br clear=all></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-- </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i>Proportional representation delivers more of what YOU voted for!</i></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Sign the Declaration: <a href="http://www.fairvote.ca/declaration" target="_blank">www.fairvote.ca/declaration</a></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:4.8pt'>_______________________________________________<br>This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list<br>Post a message: <a href="mailto:fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">fvc-wat-disc@listserv.thinkers.org</a><br>Unsubscribe: <a href="http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org" target="_blank">http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org</a></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>