[fvc-wat-disc] fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol 79, Issue 1

Sun Oct 11 00:10:34 EDT 2015

Hi Bob. FVC isn't advocating for a referendum of any kind - neither are the
Greens, Liberals or NDP, or any advocacy group supporting us. We are
advocating a process to bring citizens and experts to design a system
together and implement it for 2019. To accomplish this in four years - a
12-18 month study/consultation, 3 votes, the Senate - we will need a four
year stable government, and a serious commitment by the parties who are
part of it. That's what we're pushing for. I think of 80 countries with
proportional systems, one got it by referendum.

PEI is having referendum on electoral reform next spring. Their Liberal
politicians have written a white paper where they are promoting something
that is like AV on steroids, then having town halls to promote that option.

Allan - Bob's right - there's no need for more politicians or appetite for
it. Who knows, we may see a one or two extra seats added to make sure
voters in the far north have an MP closer to home with some models of PR -
I don't know. But I can't imagine anyone proposing many more MPs.

Glad you are having a discussion group!

Anita

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi Allan: There are at least three easy ways to implement proportional
> representation, only one of which requires more politicians:
>
> 1) Implement MMP and use the existing electoral district boundaries to
> elect a regional representative, then "top-up" with additional MPs to
> ensure parties are proportionally represented. As you note, having
> more politicians is not a popular choice.
>
> 2) Implement MMP, and change the boundaries so that there are fewer
> electoral districts, but keep the displaced MPs for "top-up". This
> achieves proportionality, but makes regional representation for larger
> districts more difficult. Believe me, a riding like
> Kitchener-Conestoga is plenty big already.
>
> 3) Implement STV using multi-member electoral districts created by
> combining several existing districts. For example, Waterloo Region has
> five electoral districts, and so could become one five-member
> district. The ranked ballot would list all 28 candidates, the top five
> chosen would the MPs, and the outcome would be mostly proportional.
> There's no increase in the number of politicians elected, and regional
> representation is maintained. However, the small parties and
> independents may not be well represented, unless many more (9 or 10)
> existing districts are combined. While that increases the degree of
> proportionality, it may reduce regional representation.
>
> There are many other ways to achieve proportionality, with various
> tradeoffs for regional representation, number of MPs, and how closely
> proportionality of votes matches the party seats.  This is why I'd
> like to see a citizen's assembly created to evaluate the different
> systems, then have a referendum on a choice of two or three alternatives.
>
> - --Bob.
>
>
>
> Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com>          Phone: +1-519-635-9413
> Candidate  for the Green Party of Canada in  Kitchener-Conestoga
> https://bobjonkmangpc.ca/       mailto:bob.jonkman at greenparty.ca
> Vote for the person  who will best represent you in your riding!
>
>
> On 10/10/15 05:28 AM, Allan Grose wrote:
> > Hi Doug, I am interested in your proposal to discuss proportional
> > representation more deeply.  My concern is that it might require
> > the addition of dozens of additional people to the legislature in
> > Ottawa.  If each member of parliament costs the taxpayers a couple
> > of hundred thousand dollars a year, plus pensions after they
> > retire, perhaps the additional cost would be unjustified.  What
> > other kind of electoral reform might be possible, I wonder. Allan
> > Grose  lloyal8"gmail.com
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 12:00 PM,
> > <fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Send fvc-wat-disc mailing list submissions to
> >> fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>
> >>
> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >> fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org
> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >> fvc-wat-disc-owner at listserv.thinkers.org
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> >> specific than "Re: Contents of fvc-wat-disc digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. democratic and electoral reform (doug moen) 2. Re: democratic
> >> and electoral reform (Paul Schellenberg)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> Message: 1
> >> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:43:24 -0400 From: doug moen
> >> <doug at moens.org> To: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org Subject:
> >> [fvc-wat-disc] democratic and electoral reform Message-ID:
> >> <CAGV6i+PF2aBjs2d9kwcb7HRNS+E+prLNAEJn9bX1s08zwpe=
> >> 4A at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> With the election coming up, I've done a lot of thinking about
> >> democratic and electoral reform in Canada, and I'm looking for a
> >> group of people to discuss this with. Fair Vote Waterloo looks
> >> like a good place to start. This group has no meetings scheduled,
> >> so is the mailing list the best place to have a conversation? I
> >> would also be interested in getting together with a group of
> >> people to have a discussion, either by organizing a meeting, or
> >> joining some group who is already doing this.
> >>
> >> This group seems focused on proportional representation as the
> >> best way to reform the electoral system. Not sure how you all
> >> feel about the ranked ballot? I'm also more generally interested
> >> in democratic reform: ending the dictatorship of the PMO and
> >> giving power back to our elected representatives in the house of
> >> parliament.
> >>
> >> Doug Moen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML
> >> attachment was scrubbed... URL: <
> >>
> http://listserv.thinkers.org/pipermail/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org/attachments/20151009/7788b4bb/attachment-0001.html
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 2 Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:01:44 -0400 From: Paul
> >> Schellenberg <pjschell at sympatico.ca> To: FVC Waterloo Region
> >> Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org> Subject: Re:
> >> [fvc-wat-disc] democratic and electoral reform Message-ID:
> >> <337157FA-74BC-44F6-AE48-7C4B43995983 at sympatico.ca> Content-Type:
> >> text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >>
> >> I would be interested in joining a group to discuss democratic
> >> and electoral reform.
> >>
> >> I do not support ranked ballots.
> >>
> >> Paul Schellenberg
> >>
> >> On Oct 9, 2015, at 10:43 AM, doug moen <doug at moens.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> With the election coming up, I've done a lot of thinking about
> >> democratic and electoral reform in Canada, and I'm looking for a
> >> group of people to discuss this with. Fair Vote Waterloo looks
> >> like a good place to start. This group has no meetings scheduled,
> >> so is the mailing list the best place to have a conversation? I
> >> would also be interested in getting together with a group of
> >> people to have a discussion, either by organizing a meeting, or
> >> joining some group who is already doing this.
> >>>
> >>> This group seems focused on proportional representation as the
> >>> best way
> >> to reform the electoral system. Not sure how you all feel about
> >> the ranked ballot? I'm also more generally interested in
> >> democratic reform: ending the dictatorship of the PMO and giving
> >> power back to our elected representatives in the house of
> >> parliament.
> >>>
> >>> Doug Moen. _______________________________________________ This
> >>> is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:
> >>> fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org Unsubscribe:
> >>
> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Subject: Digest Footer
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________ This is the
> >> fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:
> >> fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org Unsubscribe:
> >>
> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> >> End of fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol 79, Issue 1
> >> *******************************************
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ This is the
> > fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:
> > fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org Unsubscribe:
> >
> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
> >
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAlYZR84ACgkQuRKJsNLM5erCdgCePIRsucwXSO9B29uw/Kciz/zN
> qkQAoL80ScaXa+RpVYdVEGEUiSOgzweH
> =ew4G
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> Unsubscribe:
> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.thinkers.org/pipermail/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org/attachments/20151011/b3c9135d/attachment-0002.htm>