[fvc-wat-disc] Monsef ... Re: fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol 89, Issue 4

[Eleanor Grant]

When did you say Monsef is coming?

Eleanor
On 3 Aug 2016 16:06, <fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: The Government Wants To Know! (Jennifer Ross)
>    2. Re: Sept 8: KPL presentation (Laurel L. Russwurm)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jennifer Ross <2jennross at gmail.com>
> To: "Laurel L. Russwurm" <laurel.l at russwurm.org>
> Cc: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 15:50:22 -0400
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] The Government Wants To Know!
> Not at all.  The committee stuff goes to her.  We skip a step.
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Laurel L. Russwurm <laurel.l at russwurm.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Maryam Monsef herself but no committee?? That SUCKS.  It is not the same
>> thing at all.
>>
>> regards,
>> steamed Laurel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 08/03/2016 03:43 PM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>>
>> I believe that is because Maryam Monsef is going to do Waterloo Region
>> herself.  Or so we keep being promised/threatened/dangled with.
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:22 PM, Laurel L. Russwurm <laurel.l at russwurm.org
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> It certainly looks as though the ERRE Committee will NOT be stopping in
>>> Waterloo Region:
>>>
>>> It was agreed, — That, in relation to the study of viable alternate
>>> voting systems, mandatory voting and online voting, the following travel
>>> budgets be adopted:
>>>
>>> • Regina (SK), St-Pierre Jolys (MB), Winnipeg (MB), Toronto (ON), Québec
>>> (QC), and Joliette (QC): $ 137,111.80
>>>
>>> • Whitehorse (YT), Victoria (BC), Vancouver (BC), LeDuc (AB),
>>> Yellowknife(NT): $ 162,667.05
>>>
>>> • Montréal (QC), St. John’s (NL), Halifax (NS), Charlottetown (PE),
>>> Fredericton (NB) $ 130,711.80
>>>
>>> • Iqaluit ((NU) $ 109 517.50.
>>>
>>> It was agreed, — That, should the Board of Internal Economy adopt these
>>> budgets, the Analysts and the Clerks, in consultation with the Chair,
>>> prepare a news release for publication on the Committee’s website,
>>> announcing the cities that will be visited.
>>>
>>> It was agreed, — That, the Committee hire two (2) research assistants
>>> for the period of June 21 to December 1, 2016, for a total amount not to
>>> exceed $ 58,300.00.
>>>
>>> It was agreed, — That, a proposed budget in the amount of $ 80,250.00
>>> for the study of electoral reform be adopted.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=e&Mode=1&Parl=42&Ses=1&DocId=8396591
>>>
>>> If they were stopping once in each province & territory it would be
>>> different, but the 17 stops include
>>>
>>> 3 in Quebec
>>> 2 in Manitoba
>>>
>>> but only ONE in Ontario.
>>>
>>> What now?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Laurel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 08/01/2016 10:34 PM, Sharon Sommerville wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello FairVoting Friends,
>>>
>>> The Electoral Reform Committee wants to hear from Canadians, we have an
>>> amazing opportunity to let our government know that we want PR and why.
>>>
>>> COMMUNITY DIALOGUES
>>>
>>> The Electoral Reform Committee is asking Canadians to participate in
>>> community dialogues and submit reports to them on what is important in an
>>> electoral system and why.
>>>
>>> Starting on Tuesday, August 9th and every Tuesday at 6:30 from till
>>> October we will be at the Queen Street Commons (43 Queen Street South) in
>>> Kitchener to facilitate conversations about electoral reform.  We will talk
>>> together, record the conversation and submit it to the government.  Join us
>>> for a coffee and a chat.
>>>
>>> PR IN THE BACKYARD
>>>
>>> On Friday, August 12th at 7 pm join Catherine Fife, MPP for Waterloo to
>>> learn more about PR. There will be a presentation, comments from Catherine,
>>> discussion groups and a Q & A. Learn, discuss and debate in a pleasant,
>>> informal backyard setting.
>>>
>>> Hope to see you soon!,
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Sharon
>>> for FVC-WR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/> §
>>> about.me <http://about.me/laurelrusswurm> § Libreleft Books
>>> <http://libreleft.com>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in
>> the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/> § about.me
>> <http://about.me/laurelrusswurm> § Libreleft Books <http://libreleft.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in
> the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Laurel L. Russwurm" <laurel.l at russwurm.org>
> To: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 16:06:06 -0400
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Sept 8: KPL presentation
> Paul says:
>
> I see no reason at all or Fair Vote Waterloo to invite a FPTP entity.
> This is a part that will be contentious: the KPL wants this
> >> presentation to lean towards impartiality, with an honest
> >> discussion of pros in cons. They are not interested in having us
> >> advocate for one electoral system in particular, because they do
> >> not want to come across as being partisan in this issue. I warned
> >> the KPL that FVC tends to be unkind to FPTP and AV, but promised
> >> that I would try to steer the direction of the presentation more
> >> towards public information (Here is what is happening! Here are
> >> our options! Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each!)
> >> and less towards sermonizing (Proportional Representation is
> >> amazing and you are a stupidhead if you don't support it!). I
> >> have not seen Byron's presentation in a while, but I think that
> >> it is reasonably close to something that will make the KPL
> >> happy.
>
> In both my Dennis Pilon videos (no, the 2nd isn't done) the first thing he
> does is explain the different systems including FPTP.  Steve Dyck did the
> same thing at the Guelph event.  This is reasonable.
>
> Fair Vote does not advocate for any specific system, it advocates for fair
> outcomes, which can ONLY mean a system from the proportional family, which
> is not the same thing at all.  The real point here is that if the status
> quo is so easy, nobody should have to speak up for it.  FPTP is the
> default.  It doesn't need FVCwrc's help
>
> In my experience in the interest of being evenhanded FVC folk agree that
> FPTP is simple.  But it is not.
>
> What this should be is FVC presenting information.  Maybe holding mock
> election for FPTP, STV and MMP
>
> I know people say FPTP is simple but I disagree.  It is no simpler for
> voters to vote in FPTP than any PR system... unless you think 2 xes is
> harder than one, or counting to twenty is too difficult.  Even then, if I'm
> not mistaken EVERY PR system suggested for Canada would be flexible enough
> to allow voters to continue making a single mark if they so choose.
>
> FPTP is not simpler, it is only FAMILIAR.
>
> Raj Saini complained about voters accidentally marking the Libertarian
> candidate when seeing "Lib" rather than the Liberal candidate.
>
> And Dennis Pilon says we spoil more ballots here in Canada under FPTP than
> under STV in Ireland (said to be the most difficult form of PR for voters)
>
> I know I spent 30 years not understanding why my vote didn't ever count.
> I was seriously on the verge of giving up on this futile faux democracy and
> joined the ranks of non-voters but for the fact Paul introduced Fair Vote
> Canada to Bob.
>
> Fair Vote Canada is an advocate for Proportional Representation.  It is a
> LOBBY group for citizens... this is my understanding of why FVC has not
> been invited to speak to the ERRE committee.
>
> [Note: EVERY FVC member who can talk about PR with accuracy and authority
> ought to be submitting themselves as committee expert witnesses.
>
> From the press release:
> —REQUESTS TO APPEAR: Requests to appear may be sent to the Committee by
> email (erre at parl.gc.ca) or by using the appropriate button on the
> Committee’s website. Please note that the Committee clerks will contact
> only those who are selected by the Committee members to appear. Requests to
> appear must be submitted to the Committee no later than October 7, 2016, at
> 11:59 p.m. (EDT).
>
> http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=e&Mode=1&Parl=0&Ses=0&DocId=8385844
> Presumably every committee member who worked on the presentation would be
> suitable to argue "why Proportional Representation", as well as Anita,
> Jennifer, Sharon, Steve Dyck from Guelph, Pat from FairVote Peel, Larry
> Gordon, Wayne Smith, Kelly Carmichael and many more.
>
> I am not saying to pretend not to be FVC folk, it should be clear you
> are.  If a ton of Fair Vote people request to appear I can't see them being
> able to justify ignoring you all]
>
> That's my two bits.
>
> Regards,
> Laurel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 08/01/2016 03:27 PM, Sharon Sommerville wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> I took some deliberate time off over the past few days, to re-charge and
> have not been a part of this discussion but it is Monday afternoon and time
> to get back at.
>
> First, so many thanks to Paul for taking this on, we would not have
> something cooking with the library if he hadn't.  Thank you Paul.
>
> The format needs to honour both the need for even handedness by the
> library and our work to promote PR.  Our power point presentation was
> designed to be as fair as is possible given our mandate ( it was put
> together by a multipartisan committee - 2 Liberals, 1 NDP, 1 Conservative
> and 1 non aligned voter) and with additional adaptation could be more so.
> Specifically, the last slide which calls for PR could be removed.
>
> My personal preference would be to deliver our presentation followed by a
> robust Q & A and discussion. We could invite a number of folks that
> represent as spectrum political views to participate in the Q & A. I am not
> keen to organize a panel and invite someone from Keep Voting Simple as they
> will be getting lots of media attention due to the interest of the MSM to
> encourage controversy but to maintain the educational focus on electoral
> systems in general  & promote dialogue in the community.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Kind regards,
> Sharon
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:47 PM, arthurd23 arthurd23 <arthurd23 at bell.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Bob, you're correct but to the majority of voters, voting in FPTP is
>> simple and therefore preferred.
>>
>> Their concern is not fairness or democracy.
>>
>> Paul, your comments on other pros os FPTP are valid if democracy is not
>> important.
>>
>> My stance is that FPTP is not democratic unless the purpose of democracy
>> is to eliminate fair representation for most Canadians.
>>
>> Unfortunately, for some Canadians, that is a pro for FPTP. In any
>> discussion Fairvote would not need to call it a pro.
>>
>> The geographic balance that FPTP can provide can also be provided and
>> even enhanced in a system such as MMP where the non-constituency MPs can be
>> awarded with adjustments for geographic and diversity factors considered.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com>
>> Date: July 29, 2016 at 12:39 PM
>>
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Dave Arthur wrote:
>> > The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is that it is simple.
>>
>> But it's not. Try to explain how 39% of the vote results in 54% of the
>> seats in parliament. Why 57% of the votes cast in Kitchener
>> South-Hespeler did not contribute to sending anyone to parliament.
>> That Elizabeth May does not represent 600,000 voters across Canada,
>> but only 104,000 people in Saanich-Gulf Islands (and maybe only the
>> 37,000 people who voted for her).
>>
>> While it is simple to fill in an FPTP ballot, the election results are
>> baffling. And it is just as simple to fill in an MMP ballot (Two X
>> marks! Twice as hard!) or an STV ballot (counting from 1 to 5 is
>> pretty simple), and the election results from any proportional system
>> are much easier to understand.
>>
>> - --Bob.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/29/16 08:25, arthurd23 arthurd23 wrote:
>> > Thanks Paul.
>> >
>> > If we attempt to be impartial, it shouldn't be difficult to have PR
>> > pros vastly outnumber FPTP and AV pros.
>> >
>> > The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is that it is simple. Are
>> > there any others?
>> >
>> > The only advantage of AV is that the winning candidate accumulates
>> > 50% support when you include enough second place and third place
>> > supporters who don't really favour the winning candidate.
>> >
>> > PR has by far the most pros.
>> >
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >> ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Paul Nijjar
>> >> <paul_nijjar at yahoo.ca> Date: July 29, 2016 at 3:18 AM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (CCing to fvc-wat-disc. I do not know whether it will get
>> >> through because I do not know if the mailing list has been
>> >> configured to work with Yahoo. But I will try.)
>> >>
>> >> Okay, we are booked for a presentation at the Kitchener Public
>> >> Library.
>> >>
>> >> I talked with the programming manager at the KPL over the phone
>> >> today. She said that if I got a blurb to her by tomorrow then it
>> >> could be included in the In Touch magazine. I just sent that
>> >> blurb to her now (unfortunately in addition to being lazy my
>> >> stomach started acting up this evening, and I have spent a lot of
>> >> time lying low). Here is the blurb:
>> >>
>> >> ----
>> >>
>> >> Prime Minister Trudeau has promised to make "every vote count"
>> >> in future elections, and the process of electoral reform is
>> >> currently underway. Why might the current electoral system
>> >> benefit from reform? What electoral reforms are being considered?
>> >> What are their advantages and disadvantages? How is this
>> >> electoral reform process structured? How can we participate in
>> >> this process? Representatives from Fair Vote Canada will address
>> >> these issues and take your questions.
>> >>
>> >> ----
>> >>
>> >> I also made a bunch of other promises and decisions that the
>> >> Executive might not like. Here is a summary:
>> >>
>> >> - The event will be held at the central branch of the library on
>> >> Thursday, Sept 8, from 7:00pm-8:30pm. (We also had the option of
>> >> Sept 1 or Sept 22, and I may have made the wrong choice.)
>> >>
>> >> - We were originally booked for Meeting Room A, which holds 60
>> >> people. I implied that we could get over 60 people to the event,
>> >> so we are rebooked for a bigger room (maybe the auditorium? It is
>> >> not clear). Now we have to keep that promise. If only 20 people
>> >> show up we will look pretty bad.
>> >>
>> >> - It sounds as if the KPL is more interested in a discussion of
>> >> different electoral systems, as well as non-electoral system
>> >> options including mandatory voting and electronic voting.
>> >> However, we should still cover the electoral reform process (the
>> >> committee, Monsef's five principles, etc)
>> >>
>> >> - This is a part that will be contentious: the KPL wants this
>> >> presentation to lean towards impartiality, with an honest
>> >> discussion of pros in cons. They are not interested in having us
>> >> advocate for one electoral system in particular, because they do
>> >> not want to come across as being partisan in this issue. I warned
>> >> the KPL that FVC tends to be unkind to FPTP and AV, but promised
>> >> that I would try to steer the direction of the presentation more
>> >> towards public information (Here is what is happening! Here are
>> >> our options! Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each!)
>> >> and less towards sermonizing (Proportional Representation is
>> >> amazing and you are a stupidhead if you don't support it!). I
>> >> have not seen Byron's presentation in a while, but I think that
>> >> it is reasonably close to something that will make the KPL
>> >> happy.
>> >>
>> >> - The current format is looking like a 45-minute presentation
>> >> followed by abundant Q&A. This format is not set in stone. In
>> >> particular, if we wanted to put together a panel (with some
>> >> representatives from Keep Voting Simple?) then that would be okay
>> >> with the KPL too.
>> >>
>> >> Managing Q&A is going to be tricky, because events like this
>> >> attract people who like to ramble instead of asking questions.
>> >> Maybe written questions are the way to go?
>> >>
>> >> - The KPL can provide a projector. We will provide laptops and
>> >> other equipment.
>> >>
>> >> - We are allowed to have a booth outside the presentation if we
>> >> want. (The KPL told us they will not give us their registration
>> >> list, but that's fine and we were not expecting that anyways.) I
>> >> am guessing we could invite LeadNow and other groups (Keep Voting
>> >> Simple?) to have booths as well, but I do not know for sure.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Next Steps ----------
>> >>
>> >> - Figure out what format the presentation will take. It seems to
>> >> me that Byron's presentation is adaptable if we use a
>> >> presentation. If we want to put together a panel then FVC can be
>> >> less even-handed, but the other panellists might be better at
>> >> convincing people than we are.
>> >>
>> >> - Figure out who will present. My guess is that the natural
>> >> choice is Byron or Sean, since they have done this presentation
>> >> before. There might be other good presenters available as well. I
>> >> am also open to doing the presenting in the worst case. (Really?
>> >> I am too anxious to staff a booth but I can present to a big
>> >> audience? I guess my ego is really that huge.)
>> >>
>> >> - Work towards getting a good turnout, especially amongst people
>> >> who are not already voting nerds. KPL marketing will definitely
>> >> help but we have work to do as well:
>> >>
>> >> + If FVC makes some tweets or Facebook posts, can the rest of us
>> >> retweet/like/promote those items? (Sean says that Anita has a
>> >> good social network, so maybe we can exploit that.) + Can we
>> >> personally invite friends, family and enemies to attend the
>> >> presentation? + We should let LeadNow know that this presentation
>> >> is happening. I can probably email Sylvie if she is not already
>> >> on this list. + We can let people know this is happening via the
>> >> announcement list.
>> >>
>> >> I am sure there are other promotional ideas as well. We should
>> >> not rest on our laurels about this.
>> >>
>> >> - We should not stop here. Having one prominent organization
>> >> agree to host a talk is good leverage for convincing others. We
>> >> should reach out to the libraries again. It would also be great
>> >> to hit up service clubs (Rotarians, Lions Club), co-ops (we have
>> >> had good success with housing co-ops in the past), church groups,
>> >> and maybe even the remaining electoral district associations
>> >> (even the Conservatives!).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________ This is the
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>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________ This is the
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>> >
>> - --
>>
>>
>> - --
>> Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com> Phone: +1-519-635-9413
>> SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/
>> Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting
>> GnuPG Fngrprnt:04F7 742B 8F54 C40A E115 26C2 B912 89B0 D2CC E5EA
>>
>>
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>> m2UAnA0TDSzycmSgEmdUH8cV/iZa8bTo
>> =H9i1
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>>
>>
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>
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> --
> Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/> § about.me
> <http://about.me/laurelrusswurm> § Libreleft Books <http://libreleft.com>
>
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