[fvc-wat-disc] The Record column by Luisa D'Amato
Laurel L. Russwurm
laurel.l at russwurm.org
Mon Jul 4 11:28:06 EDT 2016
It doesn't matter if the your letter or comments please everyone, Don.
In a democracy every voice needs to be heard, so the big picture is
properly addressed by policy and law. Bob left a photocopy of an awful
David Akin article praising FPTP laying around, Akin argues FPTP allows
us to disagree while PR will reduce politics to one voice. But he's
got it backward. What we have now makes every party say the same thing
because they all need the most voters ... so the reality is what we have
is big tent parties that try to pretend they are everything to everyone,
and disagreement within is dangerous.
PR is so powerful because when we say what we think, we can find out
where consensus lays, but also see other points of view, find out what
works and what doesn't so we can refine our thoughts and arguments.
(Like beta readers for a self publishing novelist, there is no wrong
answer. We need to learn from each other, brainstorm together. It is
decidedly weird to argue against better democracy by arguing against
direct democracy. As Jenn points out, what you've done well is to
articulate an important part of why a referendum is as inappropriate
here as in the UK.
If we lived in Switzerland where they are referenda mad, as a matter of
course they spend 2 years educating the public before each one. The
Canadian experience is different: not only is the populace largely in
the dark because we have
(a) no experience of PR
(b) no education about it
(c) the media has spectacularly failed to inform us
AND
(d) our winner-take-all system inflicts time limits. No matter how good
the idea when government changes the new guys won't touch it.
Regards,
Laurel
On 06/30/2016 09:06 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
> Actually, Donald, that isn't true. I think it is a great message!!
>
> Because, "polls show that 62% of Canadians want a referendum" but how
> many of those people want an education campaign FIRST? Why don't you
> ask that question, Mr. Pollster, because I'm sure Canada doesn't think
> the disgrace that was the Brexit referendum is anything to follow.
>
> And we can't make THAT a thing until we have people saying they want
> an education component.
>
> So, good job in getting that ball rolling. :)
>
> Jenn
>
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Donald Fraser
> <donaldafraser at gmail.com <mailto:donaldafraser at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> OK I take it my response does not please our group ... my
> rationale for saying that a referendum would be OK with public
> education FIRST ... was to give the public education
>
> If I didn't respond that such a referendum would be OK then I
> didn't have a reason to exhibit in the letter what we would (and
> are) presenting to the public.
>
> On 29 June 2016 at 21:20, Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com
> <mailto:bjonkman at sobac.com>> wrote:
>
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>
> On 2016-06-29 08:32 PM, Laurel L. Russwurm wrote:
> > Bob:
> >
> > Your response here needs to be posted as an article on the
> fvcwrc
> > blog.
> >
> > Maybe illustrated with a copy of the FVC postcard picture and an
> > invitation to people to come pick up a postcard and/or ask
> > questions at the Fair Vote booth at the upcoming summer
> festivals.
>
> Done!
>
> http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/on-referenda-consultations-and-postcards/
>
> The blog is also open for contributions by Fair Vote Waterloo
> members.
> Sign up at
> https://www.fairvotewrc.ca/wp-login.php?action=register and
> write something!
>
> - --Bob.
>
>
> > On 06/29/2016 12:23 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
> >> Yes, very disappointing. I couldn't believe you guys were
> >> tweeting it to make people read that piece of rubbish. I'm
> sorry
> >> you had to be the poster-boy for "but I did get a second
> >> viewpoint" journalism.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Bob Jonkman
> <bjonkman at sobac.com <mailto:bjonkman at sobac.com>
> >> <mailto:bjonkman at sobac.com <mailto:bjonkman at sobac.com>>> wrote:
> >>
> > I get quoted in today's column by Luisa D'Amato:
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/6743051-d-amato-despite-brexit-we-need-a-referendum-on-electoral-reform/
> >
> >>>
> >
> >> D’Amato: Despite Brexit, we need a referendum on electoral
> >> reform
> >
> >> Bob Jonkman, co-chair of the Waterloo Region chapter of Fair
> >> Vote Canada, says there is barely time to put a new system in
> >> place, let alone ask people what they think of it
> >
> > Ms. D'Amato and I had a 20 minute conversation yesterday and
> > that's only a brief and under-representative quote of what
> we spoke
> > about. Among other things, I expressed my opinion that a
> referendum
> > on Electoral Reform isn't necessary because:
> >
> > 1) Parliament (and provincial legislatures) may change the
> > electoral system with a vote in parliament, as they have
> done for
> > every other electoral reform issue such as giving the vote to
> > women
> >>> (1917-1918) or
> > First Nations people (1960!)
> >
> > 2) A referendum on electoral reform is not a constitutional
> > requirement. The only issue that affects consitutionality is
> seat
> > allocation to the provinces, and that requirement is easily
> met by
> >>> not
> > extending electoral boundaries across provincial lines. (We
> didn't
> > discuss it, but there have been many electoral boundary changes,
> > notably before the 2015 election, which didn't go to a
> referendum
> > and were perfectly constitutional)
> >
> > 3) That an effective and equal vote is a right, and that the
> > First-Past-The-Post system violates that right, and rights
> issues
> > are never decided by referenda.
> >
> > I spoke of the rarity of referenda in Canada, that the only
> > national referenda have been on issues like prohibition (I
> thought
> > that was in the 1930's, but it was in 1898), and the
> separation of
> > Quebec (1992). Ms. D'Amato pointed out that we had a municipal
> > referendum on fluoridation, and pointed out the many provincial
> > referenda on electoral reform.
> >
> > We talked about the 2007 referendum in Ontario -- that
> example is
> > a great reason to avoid referenda on these topics. Although the
> >>> McGuinty
> > Liberals made it an election promise in 2003, the Citizens'
> > Assembly wasn't formed until 2006, leaving them only six
> months to
> > become experts in voting systems and make a recommendation.
> > Elections
> >>> Ontario
> > did not have enough information documents available; Fair Vote
> > Waterloo members went door-to-door, and we ran out. Elections
> > Ontario themselves were prohibited from giving out
> information on
> > the
> >>> proposed
> > voting system, and when voters went to the polls in October most
> > didn't even know there was a referendum on.
> >
> > I expressed dismay that it took the Federal Liberal government
> > eight months to form the current All-party Parliamentary
> Committee,
> > that
> >>> the
> > Committee's proposal is due on 1 December (and consultations
> need
> > to wrapped up by 1 October), that the time it would take to
> move a
> > bill through parliament could be as much as year, what with
> > debate, multiple reading, and senate approval, and that
> Elections
> > Canada will need a year to re-tool for a new electoral system.
> >
> > And that whole conversation was distilled down to the one
> > sentence.
> >
> > --Bob.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> - --
> >> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much
> >> political power in the hands of one person as Canada does with
> >> her Prime Minister.
> >>
> >>
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> --
> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political
> power in the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>
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--
Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/> §
about.me <http://about.me/laurelrusswurm> § Libreleft Books
<http://libreleft.com>
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