[fvc-wat-disc] The Record column by Luisa D'Amato

Mon Jul 4 17:11:33 EDT 2016

thanks, Laurel ... as I stated before I don't really want a referendum
because the public is uninformed ... But it gave me an excuse to say what
that education should be.

cheers,
Don

On 4 July 2016 at 08:28, Laurel L. Russwurm <laurel.l at russwurm.org> wrote:

> It doesn't matter if the your letter or comments please everyone, Don.  In
> a democracy every voice needs to be heard, so the big picture is properly
> addressed by policy and law.  Bob left a photocopy of an awful David Akin
> article praising FPTP laying around, Akin argues FPTP allows us to disagree
> while PR will reduce politics to one voice.   But he's got it backward.
> What we have now makes every party say the same thing because they all need
> the most voters ... so the reality is what we have is big tent parties that
> try to pretend they are everything to everyone, and disagreement within is
> dangerous.
>
> PR is so powerful because when we say what we think, we can find out where
> consensus lays, but also see other points of view, find out what works and
> what doesn't so we can refine our thoughts and arguments.  (Like beta
> readers for a self publishing novelist, there is no wrong answer.  We need
> to learn from each other, brainstorm together.  It is decidedly weird to
> argue against better democracy by arguing against direct democracy.   As
> Jenn points out, what you've done well is to articulate an important part
> of why a referendum is as inappropriate here as in the UK.
>
> If we lived in Switzerland where they are referenda mad, as a matter of
> course they spend 2 years educating the public before each one.  The
> Canadian experience is different: not only is the populace largely in the
> dark because we have
> (a) no experience of PR
> (b) no education about it
> (c) the media has spectacularly failed to inform us
> AND
> (d) our winner-take-all system inflicts time limits.  No matter how good
> the idea when government changes the new guys won't touch it.
>
> Regards,
> Laurel
>
>
>
>
>
> On 06/30/2016 09:06 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>
> Actually, Donald, that isn't true.  I think it is a great message!!
>
> Because, "polls show that 62% of Canadians want a referendum" but how many
> of those people want an education campaign FIRST?  Why don't you ask that
> question, Mr. Pollster, because I'm sure Canada doesn't think the disgrace
> that was the Brexit referendum is anything to follow.
>
> And we can't make THAT a thing until we have people saying they want an
> education component.
>
> So, good job in getting that ball rolling.  :)
>
> Jenn
>
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> OK I take it my response does not please our group ... my rationale for
>> saying that a referendum would be OK with public education FIRST ... was to
>> give the public education
>>
>> If I didn't respond that such a referendum would be OK then I didn't have
>> a reason to exhibit in the letter what we would (and are) presenting to the
>> public.
>>
>> On 29 June 2016 at 21:20, Bob Jonkman < <bjonkman at sobac.com>
>> bjonkman at sobac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> On 2016-06-29 08:32 PM, Laurel L. Russwurm wrote:
>>> > Bob:
>>> >
>>> > Your response here needs to be posted as an article on the fvcwrc
>>> > blog.
>>> >
>>> > Maybe illustrated with a copy of the FVC postcard picture and an
>>> > invitation to people to come pick up a postcard and/or ask
>>> > questions at the Fair Vote booth at the upcoming summer festivals.
>>>
>>> Done!
>>>
>>>  http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/on-referenda-consultations-and-postcards/
>>>
>>> The blog is also open for contributions by Fair Vote Waterloo members.
>>> Sign up at https://www.fairvotewrc.ca/wp-login.php?action=register and
>>> write something!
>>>
>>> - --Bob.
>>>
>>>
>>> > On 06/29/2016 12:23 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>>> >> Yes, very disappointing.  I couldn't believe you guys were
>>> >> tweeting it to make people read that piece of rubbish.  I'm sorry
>>> >> you had to be the poster-boy for "but I did get a second
>>> >> viewpoint" journalism.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com
>>> >> <mailto: <bjonkman at sobac.com>bjonkman at sobac.com>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> > I get quoted in today's column by Luisa D'Amato:
>>> >
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/6743051-d-amato-despite-brexit-we-need-a-referendum-on-electoral-reform/
>>> >
>>> >>>
>>> >
>>> >> D’Amato: Despite Brexit, we need a referendum on electoral
>>> >> reform
>>> >
>>> >> Bob Jonkman, co-chair of the Waterloo Region chapter of Fair
>>> >> Vote Canada, says there is barely time to put a new system in
>>> >> place, let alone ask people what they think of it
>>> >
>>> > Ms. D'Amato and I had a 20 minute conversation yesterday and
>>> > that's only a brief and under-representative quote of what we spoke
>>> > about. Among other things, I expressed my opinion that a referendum
>>> > on Electoral Reform isn't necessary because:
>>> >
>>> > 1) Parliament (and provincial legislatures) may change the
>>> > electoral system with a vote in parliament, as they have done for
>>> > every other electoral reform issue such as giving the vote to
>>> > women
>>> >>> (1917-1918) or
>>> > First Nations people (1960!)
>>> >
>>> > 2) A referendum on electoral reform is not a constitutional
>>> > requirement. The only issue that affects consitutionality is seat
>>> > allocation to the provinces, and that requirement is easily met by
>>> >>> not
>>> > extending electoral boundaries across provincial lines. (We didn't
>>> > discuss it, but there have been many electoral boundary changes,
>>> > notably before the 2015 election, which didn't go to a referendum
>>> > and were perfectly constitutional)
>>> >
>>> > 3) That an effective and equal vote is a right, and that the
>>> > First-Past-The-Post system violates that right, and rights issues
>>> > are never decided by referenda.
>>> >
>>> > I spoke of the rarity of referenda in Canada, that the only
>>> > national referenda have been on issues like prohibition (I thought
>>> > that was in the 1930's, but it was in 1898), and the separation of
>>> > Quebec (1992). Ms. D'Amato pointed out that we had a municipal
>>> > referendum on fluoridation, and pointed out the many provincial
>>> > referenda on electoral reform.
>>> >
>>> > We talked about the 2007 referendum in Ontario -- that example is
>>> > a great reason to avoid referenda on these topics. Although the
>>> >>> McGuinty
>>> > Liberals made it an election promise in 2003, the Citizens'
>>> > Assembly wasn't formed until 2006, leaving them only six months to
>>> > become experts in voting systems and make a recommendation.
>>> > Elections
>>> >>> Ontario
>>> > did not have enough information documents available; Fair Vote
>>> > Waterloo members went door-to-door, and we ran out. Elections
>>> > Ontario themselves were prohibited from giving out information on
>>> > the
>>> >>> proposed
>>> > voting system, and when voters went to the polls in October most
>>> > didn't even know there was a referendum on.
>>> >
>>> > I expressed dismay that it took the Federal Liberal government
>>> > eight months to form the current All-party Parliamentary Committee,
>>> > that
>>> >>> the
>>> > Committee's proposal is due on 1 December (and consultations need
>>> > to wrapped up by 1 October), that the time it would take to move a
>>> > bill through parliament could be as much as year, what with
>>> > debate, multiple reading, and senate approval, and that Elections
>>> > Canada will need a year to re-tool for a new electoral system.
>>> >
>>> > And that whole conversation was distilled down to the one
>>> > sentence.
>>> >
>>> > --Bob.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
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>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> - --
>>> >> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much
>>> >> political power in the hands of one person as Canada does with
>>> >> her Prime Minister.
>>> >>
>>> >>
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>
>
> --
> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in
> the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>
>
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> --
> Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/> § about.me
> <http://about.me/laurelrusswurm> § Libreleft Books <http://libreleft.com>
>
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