[fvc-wat-disc] The Record column by Luisa D'Amato

Sat Jul 9 08:36:27 EDT 2016

Well done!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 9, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Sharon Sommerville <sharonsommerville at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Congratulations Donald!  Your letter is today's lead in the Record's Letters to the Editor.
> 
> Thank you & hope you are having a great holiday,
> 
> Sharon
> 
>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com> wrote:
>> thanks, Laurel ... as I stated before I don't really want a referendum because the public is uninformed ... But it gave me an excuse to say what that education should be.
>> 
>> cheers,
>> Don
>> 
>>> On 4 July 2016 at 08:28, Laurel L. Russwurm <laurel.l at russwurm.org> wrote:
>>> It doesn't matter if the your letter or comments please everyone, Don.  In a democracy every voice needs to be heard, so the big picture is properly addressed by policy and law.  Bob left a photocopy of an awful David Akin article praising FPTP laying around, Akin argues FPTP allows us to disagree while PR will reduce politics to one voice.   But he's got it backward.  What we have now makes every party say the same thing because they all need the most voters ... so the reality is what we have is big tent parties that try to pretend they are everything to everyone, and disagreement within is dangerous.  
>>> 
>>> PR is so powerful because when we say what we think, we can find out where consensus lays, but also see other points of view, find out what works and what doesn't so we can refine our thoughts and arguments.  (Like beta readers for a self publishing novelist, there is no wrong answer.  We need to learn from each other, brainstorm together.  It is decidedly weird to argue against better democracy by arguing against direct democracy.   As Jenn points out, what you've done well is to articulate an important part of why a referendum is as inappropriate here as in the UK.  
>>> 
>>> If we lived in Switzerland where they are referenda mad, as a matter of course they spend 2 years educating the public before each one.  The Canadian experience is different: not only is the populace largely in the dark because we have 
>>> (a) no experience of PR 
>>> (b) no education about it 
>>> (c) the media has spectacularly failed to inform us
>>> AND
>>> (d) our winner-take-all system inflicts time limits.  No matter how good the idea when government changes the new guys won't touch it.  
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Laurel
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 06/30/2016 09:06 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>>>> Actually, Donald, that isn't true.  I think it is a great message!!
>>>> 
>>>> Because, "polls show that 62% of Canadians want a referendum" but how many of those people want an education campaign FIRST?  Why don't you ask that question, Mr. Pollster, because I'm sure Canada doesn't think the disgrace that was the Brexit referendum is anything to follow.
>>>> 
>>>> And we can't make THAT a thing until we have people saying they want an education component.
>>>> 
>>>> So, good job in getting that ball rolling.  :)
>>>> 
>>>> Jenn
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> OK I take it my response does not please our group ... my rationale for saying that a referendum would be OK with public education FIRST ... was to give the public education
>>>>> 
>>>>> If I didn't respond that such a referendum would be OK then I didn't have a reason to exhibit in the letter what we would (and are) presenting to the public.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 29 June 2016 at 21:20, Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com> wrote:
>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2016-06-29 08:32 PM, Laurel L. Russwurm wrote:
>>>>>> > Bob:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Your response here needs to be posted as an article on the fvcwrc
>>>>>> > blog.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Maybe illustrated with a copy of the FVC postcard picture and an
>>>>>> > invitation to people to come pick up a postcard and/or ask
>>>>>> > questions at the Fair Vote booth at the upcoming summer festivals.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Done!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/on-referenda-consultations-and-postcards/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The blog is also open for contributions by Fair Vote Waterloo members.
>>>>>> Sign up at https://www.fairvotewrc.ca/wp-login.php?action=register and
>>>>>> write something!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> - --Bob.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > On 06/29/2016 12:23 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>>>>>> >> Yes, very disappointing.  I couldn't believe you guys were
>>>>>> >> tweeting it to make people read that piece of rubbish.  I'm sorry
>>>>>> >> you had to be the poster-boy for "but I did get a second
>>>>>> >> viewpoint" journalism.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com
>>>>>> >> <mailto:bjonkman at sobac.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> > I get quoted in today's column by Luisa D'Amato:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/6743051-d-amato-despite-brexit-we-need-a-referendum-on-electoral-reform/
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> D’Amato: Despite Brexit, we need a referendum on electoral
>>>>>> >> reform
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Bob Jonkman, co-chair of the Waterloo Region chapter of Fair
>>>>>> >> Vote Canada, says there is barely time to put a new system in
>>>>>> >> place, let alone ask people what they think of it
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Ms. D'Amato and I had a 20 minute conversation yesterday and
>>>>>> > that's only a brief and under-representative quote of what we spoke
>>>>>> > about. Among other things, I expressed my opinion that a referendum
>>>>>> > on Electoral Reform isn't necessary because:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 1) Parliament (and provincial legislatures) may change the
>>>>>> > electoral system with a vote in parliament, as they have done for
>>>>>> > every other electoral reform issue such as giving the vote to
>>>>>> > women
>>>>>> >>> (1917-1918) or
>>>>>> > First Nations people (1960!)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 2) A referendum on electoral reform is not a constitutional
>>>>>> > requirement. The only issue that affects consitutionality is seat
>>>>>> > allocation to the provinces, and that requirement is easily met by
>>>>>> >>> not
>>>>>> > extending electoral boundaries across provincial lines. (We didn't
>>>>>> > discuss it, but there have been many electoral boundary changes,
>>>>>> > notably before the 2015 election, which didn't go to a referendum
>>>>>> > and were perfectly constitutional)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 3) That an effective and equal vote is a right, and that the
>>>>>> > First-Past-The-Post system violates that right, and rights issues
>>>>>> > are never decided by referenda.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I spoke of the rarity of referenda in Canada, that the only
>>>>>> > national referenda have been on issues like prohibition (I thought
>>>>>> > that was in the 1930's, but it was in 1898), and the separation of
>>>>>> > Quebec (1992). Ms. D'Amato pointed out that we had a municipal
>>>>>> > referendum on fluoridation, and pointed out the many provincial
>>>>>> > referenda on electoral reform.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > We talked about the 2007 referendum in Ontario -- that example is
>>>>>> > a great reason to avoid referenda on these topics. Although the
>>>>>> >>> McGuinty
>>>>>> > Liberals made it an election promise in 2003, the Citizens'
>>>>>> > Assembly wasn't formed until 2006, leaving them only six months to
>>>>>> > become experts in voting systems and make a recommendation.
>>>>>> > Elections
>>>>>> >>> Ontario
>>>>>> > did not have enough information documents available; Fair Vote
>>>>>> > Waterloo members went door-to-door, and we ran out. Elections
>>>>>> > Ontario themselves were prohibited from giving out information on
>>>>>> > the
>>>>>> >>> proposed
>>>>>> > voting system, and when voters went to the polls in October most
>>>>>> > didn't even know there was a referendum on.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I expressed dismay that it took the Federal Liberal government
>>>>>> > eight months to form the current All-party Parliamentary Committee,
>>>>>> > that
>>>>>> >>> the
>>>>>> > Committee's proposal is due on 1 December (and consultations need
>>>>>> > to wrapped up by 1 October), that the time it would take to move a
>>>>>> > bill through parliament could be as much as year, what with
>>>>>> > debate, multiple reading, and senate approval, and that Elections
>>>>>> > Canada will need a year to re-tool for a new electoral system.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > And that whole conversation was distilled down to the one
>>>>>> > sentence.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > --Bob.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ This is the
>>>>>> >> fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:
>>>>>> >> fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>> >> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> - --
>>>>>> >> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much
>>>>>> >> political power in the hands of one person as Canada does with
>>>>>> >> her Prime Minister.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ This is the
>>>>>> >> fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:
>>>>>> >> fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org Unsubscribe:
>>>>>> >> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ This is the
>>>>>> > fvc-wat-disc mailing list Post a message:
>>>>>> > fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org Unsubscribe:
>>>>>> > http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>>>> Version: GnuPG v2
>>>>>> Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> iEYEARECAAYFAld0ngQACgkQuRKJsNLM5equtwCePjB8t71t6S3oqZgbfoc04nbd
>>>>>> l4UAnRjMKGkz36tsln7tAtHLSp0ostwx
>>>>>> =t/f4
>>>>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Laurel L. Russwurm, Author § about.me § Libreleft Books
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.thinkers.org/pipermail/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org/attachments/20160709/70ac5a0e/attachment-0002.htm>