[fvc-wat-disc] The Record column by Luisa D'Amato

Sat Jul 9 08:34:30 EDT 2016

Congratulations Donald!  Your letter is today's lead in the Record's
Letters to the Editor.

Thank you & hope you are having a great holiday,

Sharon

On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
wrote:

> thanks, Laurel ... as I stated before I don't really want a referendum
> because the public is uninformed ... But it gave me an excuse to say what
> that education should be.
>
> cheers,
> Don
>
> On 4 July 2016 at 08:28, Laurel L. Russwurm <laurel.l at russwurm.org> wrote:
>
>> It doesn't matter if the your letter or comments please everyone, Don.
>> In a democracy every voice needs to be heard, so the big picture is
>> properly addressed by policy and law.  Bob left a photocopy of an awful
>> David Akin article praising FPTP laying around, Akin argues FPTP allows us
>> to disagree while PR will reduce politics to one voice.   But he's got it
>> backward.  What we have now makes every party say the same thing because
>> they all need the most voters ... so the reality is what we have is big
>> tent parties that try to pretend they are everything to everyone, and
>> disagreement within is dangerous.
>>
>> PR is so powerful because when we say what we think, we can find out
>> where consensus lays, but also see other points of view, find out what
>> works and what doesn't so we can refine our thoughts and arguments.  (Like
>> beta readers for a self publishing novelist, there is no wrong answer.  We
>> need to learn from each other, brainstorm together.  It is decidedly weird
>> to argue against better democracy by arguing against direct democracy.   As
>> Jenn points out, what you've done well is to articulate an important part
>> of why a referendum is as inappropriate here as in the UK.
>>
>> If we lived in Switzerland where they are referenda mad, as a matter of
>> course they spend 2 years educating the public before each one.  The
>> Canadian experience is different: not only is the populace largely in the
>> dark because we have
>> (a) no experience of PR
>> (b) no education about it
>> (c) the media has spectacularly failed to inform us
>> AND
>> (d) our winner-take-all system inflicts time limits.  No matter how good
>> the idea when government changes the new guys won't touch it.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Laurel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 06/30/2016 09:06 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>>
>> Actually, Donald, that isn't true.  I think it is a great message!!
>>
>> Because, "polls show that 62% of Canadians want a referendum" but how
>> many of those people want an education campaign FIRST?  Why don't you ask
>> that question, Mr. Pollster, because I'm sure Canada doesn't think the
>> disgrace that was the Brexit referendum is anything to follow.
>>
>> And we can't make THAT a thing until we have people saying they want an
>> education component.
>>
>> So, good job in getting that ball rolling.  :)
>>
>> Jenn
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> OK I take it my response does not please our group ... my rationale for
>>> saying that a referendum would be OK with public education FIRST ... was to
>>> give the public education
>>>
>>> If I didn't respond that such a referendum would be OK then I didn't
>>> have a reason to exhibit in the letter what we would (and are) presenting
>>> to the public.
>>>
>>> On 29 June 2016 at 21:20, Bob Jonkman < <bjonkman at sobac.com>
>>> bjonkman at sobac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>
>>>> On 2016-06-29 08:32 PM, Laurel L. Russwurm wrote:
>>>> > Bob:
>>>> >
>>>> > Your response here needs to be posted as an article on the fvcwrc
>>>> > blog.
>>>> >
>>>> > Maybe illustrated with a copy of the FVC postcard picture and an
>>>> > invitation to people to come pick up a postcard and/or ask
>>>> > questions at the Fair Vote booth at the upcoming summer festivals.
>>>>
>>>> Done!
>>>>
>>>>  http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/on-referenda-consultations-and-postcards/
>>>>
>>>> The blog is also open for contributions by Fair Vote Waterloo members.
>>>> Sign up at https://www.fairvotewrc.ca/wp-login.php?action=register and
>>>> write something!
>>>>
>>>> - --Bob.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On 06/29/2016 12:23 AM, Jennifer Ross wrote:
>>>> >> Yes, very disappointing.  I couldn't believe you guys were
>>>> >> tweeting it to make people read that piece of rubbish.  I'm sorry
>>>> >> you had to be the poster-boy for "but I did get a second
>>>> >> viewpoint" journalism.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com
>>>> >> <mailto: <bjonkman at sobac.com>bjonkman at sobac.com>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> > I get quoted in today's column by Luisa D'Amato:
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/6743051-d-amato-despite-brexit-we-need-a-referendum-on-electoral-reform/
>>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >> D’Amato: Despite Brexit, we need a referendum on electoral
>>>> >> reform
>>>> >
>>>> >> Bob Jonkman, co-chair of the Waterloo Region chapter of Fair
>>>> >> Vote Canada, says there is barely time to put a new system in
>>>> >> place, let alone ask people what they think of it
>>>> >
>>>> > Ms. D'Amato and I had a 20 minute conversation yesterday and
>>>> > that's only a brief and under-representative quote of what we spoke
>>>> > about. Among other things, I expressed my opinion that a referendum
>>>> > on Electoral Reform isn't necessary because:
>>>> >
>>>> > 1) Parliament (and provincial legislatures) may change the
>>>> > electoral system with a vote in parliament, as they have done for
>>>> > every other electoral reform issue such as giving the vote to
>>>> > women
>>>> >>> (1917-1918) or
>>>> > First Nations people (1960!)
>>>> >
>>>> > 2) A referendum on electoral reform is not a constitutional
>>>> > requirement. The only issue that affects consitutionality is seat
>>>> > allocation to the provinces, and that requirement is easily met by
>>>> >>> not
>>>> > extending electoral boundaries across provincial lines. (We didn't
>>>> > discuss it, but there have been many electoral boundary changes,
>>>> > notably before the 2015 election, which didn't go to a referendum
>>>> > and were perfectly constitutional)
>>>> >
>>>> > 3) That an effective and equal vote is a right, and that the
>>>> > First-Past-The-Post system violates that right, and rights issues
>>>> > are never decided by referenda.
>>>> >
>>>> > I spoke of the rarity of referenda in Canada, that the only
>>>> > national referenda have been on issues like prohibition (I thought
>>>> > that was in the 1930's, but it was in 1898), and the separation of
>>>> > Quebec (1992). Ms. D'Amato pointed out that we had a municipal
>>>> > referendum on fluoridation, and pointed out the many provincial
>>>> > referenda on electoral reform.
>>>> >
>>>> > We talked about the 2007 referendum in Ontario -- that example is
>>>> > a great reason to avoid referenda on these topics. Although the
>>>> >>> McGuinty
>>>> > Liberals made it an election promise in 2003, the Citizens'
>>>> > Assembly wasn't formed until 2006, leaving them only six months to
>>>> > become experts in voting systems and make a recommendation.
>>>> > Elections
>>>> >>> Ontario
>>>> > did not have enough information documents available; Fair Vote
>>>> > Waterloo members went door-to-door, and we ran out. Elections
>>>> > Ontario themselves were prohibited from giving out information on
>>>> > the
>>>> >>> proposed
>>>> > voting system, and when voters went to the polls in October most
>>>> > didn't even know there was a referendum on.
>>>> >
>>>> > I expressed dismay that it took the Federal Liberal government
>>>> > eight months to form the current All-party Parliamentary Committee,
>>>> > that
>>>> >>> the
>>>> > Committee's proposal is due on 1 December (and consultations need
>>>> > to wrapped up by 1 October), that the time it would take to move a
>>>> > bill through parliament could be as much as year, what with
>>>> > debate, multiple reading, and senate approval, and that Elections
>>>> > Canada will need a year to re-tool for a new electoral system.
>>>> >
>>>> > And that whole conversation was distilled down to the one
>>>> > sentence.
>>>> >
>>>> > --Bob.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
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>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> - --
>>>> >> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much
>>>> >> political power in the hands of one person as Canada does with
>>>> >> her Prime Minister.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in
>> the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/> § about.me
>> <http://about.me/laurelrusswurm> § Libreleft Books <http://libreleft.com>
>>
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