[fvc-wat-disc] Learning from the gun lobby to win reform

[STUART CHANDLER]

Thanks Bob for your comments. 
Very helpful. 

Also, personally, I'd be quite wary ‎of "learning from the gun lobby" - people who have used misinformation, scare tactics & bullying to accomplish their "reform" ends. They also use extensive financial resources to aid in their lobbying efforts. Not many parallels with democratic electoral reform. And as US poles showed that there was over 90% approval for getting rid of the "gun-show loophole" for example, they would be absolutely opposed to any form of PR. 
Thanks again. 
Stu.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
  Original Message  
From: Bob Jonkman
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 4:02 AM
To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
Reply To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Learning from the gun lobby to win reform

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Donald Fraser wrote:
> The article is really interesting in that it tells us ... "if you 
> do it once this time" you'll never be able to do it again so
> easily ... "it" referring to using FPTP to kill FPTP ...

I think the evidence from other countries that have introduced
Proportional Representation have made modifications to the first
system introduced until it worked for them. Once a change has been
made it to the voting system becomes easier to make additional changes.

> If coalition government parties get filled up with a lot of dead
> wood, entitled politicians, it can be difficult for the voters to
> threaten the government with throwing them out

And while proportional governments tend to be stable because the
coalitions tend to be consistent, it's not because the individual
politicians that make up the coalistions are the same ones. A
multi-member riding will introduce competition among candidates, even
among candidates from the same party. If you have a five-member riding
and typically elect three Liberals, the five nominated Liberal
candidates each have to ensure they're in one of the top three spots.
With a multi-member PR system the dead wood tends to be pruned out
quickly.


I'm not sure what Ian Brodie is getting at when he writes

> Grassroots groups of electoral reformers are trying to figure out
> what to do next. They finally saw a prime minister elected on a
> platform of electoral reform, and now he's abandoned the cause.
> 
> You guys thought it would be easy — that Trudeau would be
> different, and you could just sit back and watch him change the
> country for the better.

He's obviously not been to any Fair Vote meetings. With success so
close at hand, we're actually working harder than ever!


- --Bob.


On 2017-02-12 09:58 AM, Donald Fraser wrote:
> The article is really interesting in that it tells us ... "if you 
> do it once this time" you'll never be able to do it again so
> easily ... "it" referring to using FPTP to kill FPTP ...
> 
> After that any major change will be very difficult BECAUSE the very
> advantage of stable government means that government it not readily
> changed which may become a disadvantage
> 
> It's a bit scary and not something we PR supporters have thought 
> of. If coalition government parties get filled up with a lot of 
> dead wood, entitled politicians, it can be difficult for the
> voters to threaten the government with throwing them out, because
> there may just be more of the same from the different parties to
> take their place ... the activist swing voters lose their power to 
> change things quickly
> 
> One can see this a bit by observing the EU with its huge cadre of 
> entitled politicians and unelected officials forcing member states 
> to do their will (e.g. immigration policy) and causing them to
> want to leave as in Brexit
> 
> On 12 February 2017 at 00:03, Jon Bathmaker 
> <jon.bathmaker at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Very Interesting Read!
>> 
>> On 2/11/2017 11:57 PM, Kevin Smith wrote:
>> 
>> "Don’t let Liberals who say they support your cause off the
>> hook. Play tough. Play the long game," says Ian Brodie, former
>> chief of staff to prime minister Harper, on how those who still
>> want electoral reform can learn from history, and work the
>> system.
>> 
>> http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinon-ian-brodie- 
>> electoral-reform-1.3977906
>> 
>> Shared via the CBC News Android App
>> 
>> 
>> 
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- -- 


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