[fvc-wat-disc] Learning from the gun lobby to win reform

Mon Feb 13 10:59:47 EST 2017

My comments were only meant to be internal ... we don't usually talk about
possible weaknesses of PR and coalition government  ... but there must be
some, and I think entitlement and the development of a political class that
is aware that the cross section of government will remain stable COULD be
one of them, which this article hinted at  ... publicly, I would never say
these things

On 13 February 2017 at 05:59, STUART CHANDLER <stuchandler43 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thanks Bob for your comments.
> Very helpful.
>
> Also, personally, I'd be quite wary ‎of "learning from the gun lobby" -
> people who have used misinformation, scare tactics & bullying to accomplish
> their "reform" ends. They also use extensive financial resources to aid in
> their lobbying efforts. Not many parallels with democratic electoral
> reform. And as US poles showed that there was over 90% approval for getting
> rid of the "gun-show loophole" for example, they would be absolutely
> opposed to any form of PR.
> Thanks again.
> Stu.
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>   Original Message
> From: Bob Jonkman
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 4:02 AM
> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> Reply To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Learning from the gun lobby to win reform
>
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> Donald Fraser wrote:
> > The article is really interesting in that it tells us ... "if you
> > do it once this time" you'll never be able to do it again so
> > easily ... "it" referring to using FPTP to kill FPTP ...
>
> I think the evidence from other countries that have introduced
> Proportional Representation have made modifications to the first
> system introduced until it worked for them. Once a change has been
> made it to the voting system becomes easier to make additional changes.
>
> > If coalition government parties get filled up with a lot of dead
> > wood, entitled politicians, it can be difficult for the voters to
> > threaten the government with throwing them out
>
> And while proportional governments tend to be stable because the
> coalitions tend to be consistent, it's not because the individual
> politicians that make up the coalistions are the same ones. A
> multi-member riding will introduce competition among candidates, even
> among candidates from the same party. If you have a five-member riding
> and typically elect three Liberals, the five nominated Liberal
> candidates each have to ensure they're in one of the top three spots.
> With a multi-member PR system the dead wood tends to be pruned out
> quickly.
>
>
> I'm not sure what Ian Brodie is getting at when he writes
>
> > Grassroots groups of electoral reformers are trying to figure out
> > what to do next. They finally saw a prime minister elected on a
> > platform of electoral reform, and now he's abandoned the cause.
> >
> > You guys thought it would be easy — that Trudeau would be
> > different, and you could just sit back and watch him change the
> > country for the better.
>
> He's obviously not been to any Fair Vote meetings. With success so
> close at hand, we're actually working harder than ever!
>
>
> - --Bob.
>
>
> On 2017-02-12 09:58 AM, Donald Fraser wrote:
> > The article is really interesting in that it tells us ... "if you
> > do it once this time" you'll never be able to do it again so
> > easily ... "it" referring to using FPTP to kill FPTP ...
> >
> > After that any major change will be very difficult BECAUSE the very
> > advantage of stable government means that government it not readily
> > changed which may become a disadvantage
> >
> > It's a bit scary and not something we PR supporters have thought
> > of. If coalition government parties get filled up with a lot of
> > dead wood, entitled politicians, it can be difficult for the
> > voters to threaten the government with throwing them out, because
> > there may just be more of the same from the different parties to
> > take their place ... the activist swing voters lose their power to
> > change things quickly
> >
> > One can see this a bit by observing the EU with its huge cadre of
> > entitled politicians and unelected officials forcing member states
> > to do their will (e.g. immigration policy) and causing them to
> > want to leave as in Brexit
> >
> > On 12 February 2017 at 00:03, Jon Bathmaker
> > <jon.bathmaker at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Very Interesting Read!
> >>
> >> On 2/11/2017 11:57 PM, Kevin Smith wrote:
> >>
> >> "Don’t let Liberals who say they support your cause off the
> >> hook. Play tough. Play the long game," says Ian Brodie, former
> >> chief of staff to prime minister Harper, on how those who still
> >> want electoral reform can learn from history, and work the
> >> system.
> >>
> >> http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinon-ian-brodie-
> >> electoral-reform-1.3977906
> >>
> >> Shared via the CBC News Android App
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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>
> - --
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