[fvc-wat-disc] Total ballots ...'wasted' votes

STUART CHANDLER stuchandler43 at gmail.com
Tue Feb 28 16:17:22 EST 2017 

Thanks Bob. 
I hope John finds that helpful. 
I suspect he is correct that more Canadians are unhappy with FPTP than those who really like it. But most are not aware of how PR could work, or how much it would improve our Parliament and the decision making there. 
As far as how it might work, a simple explanation that comes to mind is this: take Kitchener Centre, and add to it the three closest ridings. That would allow for a riding where 4 Candidates (the top 4 with the most votes) could each win a seat without having to increase the seats in Parliament. Now suppose that there were 8 candidates running in that riding in a hypothetical election. And let's imagine that the top 4 just happened to be 1 Liberal 1 Conservative, 1 NDP, and 1 Green.  Then, at least those who voted for each of those 4 parties would feel as though their vote had counted/ mattered and that they would have representation in Parliament, so their voice could be heard.

Cheers. 
Stu.  


Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
  Original Message  
From: Bob Jonkman
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 2:53 PM‎
To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
Reply To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Total ballots ...'wasted' votes

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John Cooper wrote:

> The fact is that only one candidate can be elected.

That's the case under our current FPTP system.

> Maybe our way of selecting our political leaders by votes is all
> wrong.

Yes!

> Is there another way?

Almost all the proposed systems for Proportional Representation are an
improvement. The main exception is block voting (choosing only a
party, not a candidate), and that's not being proposed by anyone for a
Canadian voting system.

- --Bob.



On 2017-02-27 11:48 PM, John Cooper wrote:
> Hi Stu
> 
> 
> 
> So based on your argument, all votes must elect the winner or none
> are of any value.
> 
> The fact is that only one candidate can be elected.
> 
> Why bother to have more than one political party and more than one
> candidate?
> 
> Or as George Washington proposed: no political parties.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the “make every vote count" phrase is the ‘wrong choice’?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe our way of selecting our political leaders by votes is all
> wrong.
> 
> Is there another way?
> 
> Is it possible to have consensus when thousands of people are
> selecting a representative?
> 
> 
> 
> Based on voter intentions and the results in the last election,
> more people are opposed to ‘first past the post’ than those who
> support it.
> 
> Trudeau and the Liberals have chosen to ignore this for their own
> purposes.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm from the older generation too.
> 
> There are many of ‘our generation’ who do not vote because they
> never did or they have become too cynical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: fvc-wat-disc
> [mailto:fvc-wat-disc-bounces at listserv.thinkers.org] On Behalf Of
> STUART CHANDLER Sent: February-27-17 10:46 PM To: John Cooper; 'FVC
> Waterloo Region Discussion' Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Total
> ballots ...
> 
> 
> 
> Hi John.
> 
> I'm not sure about others, but I choose to use the term "wasted
> vote" for a deliberate purpose. I use it for any potential shocking
> effect it might have on the reader/listener‎, and I always follow
> it with brackets stating something like: () to explain what I mean
> by "wasted vote".
> 
> I've heard others advance the theory that no vote is wasted, but I
> find I'm not interested ‎in pursuing that theory as I worry that
> the opponents of PR will simply use it as a way to justify their
> satisfaction with the status quo. I would not want to feed their
> addiction to FPTP.
> 
> 
> 
> My vote in 2015 was one of the more than 9 Million "wasted votes"‎,
> so I am taking it personally that the person I chose to support was
> beaten by someone I was opposed to, so I am effectively without
> representation in Parliament (at least from my riding - and it
> appears from most other ridings as well, particularly since all the
> Liberal MPs have betrayed those of us who were voting for the
> concept of electoral reform).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm from the older generation, many of whom will continue to
> exercise the civic responsibility to vote, even if my choice
> doesn't win. But many others are discouraged from voting because
> they do not expect their vote will actually affect the outcome.
> Consequently, I believe we need to stick with identifying such
> votes as wasted, in order to advance our cause "to make every vote
> count". ‎(Otherwise that phrase is pointless.)
> 
> 
> 
> Sincerely.
> 
> Stu Chandler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
> 
> 
> From: John Cooper
> 
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 5:55 PM
> 
> To: 'FVC Waterloo Region Discussion'
> 
> Reply To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> 
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Total ballots ...
> 
> 
> 
> in a democracy (whatever that is) , no vote is a ‘wasted vote’.
> Everyone who meets the criteria has a right – and a duty as a
> citizen - to vote.
> 
> It’s only wasted if you did not vote according to your principles
> and values for the person or party who shares those with you or you
> did not vote at all.
> 
> 
> 
> There’s a difference between a ‘wasted vote’ and a ‘principled
> vote’.
> 
> 
> 
> The real issue is whether the person elected receives more than a
> simple plurality of votes over the other candidates.
> 
> Is that democracy?
> 
> 
> 
> The people who voted for the ‘winners’ and are not happy with the
> decisions of those ‘winners’ after they gained power – those are
> wasted votes
> 
> because you did not vote according to your principles. You got
> ‘sucked in’ by the promises of liars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: fvc-wat-disc
> [mailto:fvc-wat-disc-bounces at listserv.thinkers.org] On Behalf Of
> Eleanor Grant Sent: February-27-17 5:08 PM To:
> fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] Total
> ballots ...
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Fair Voters -
> 
> 
> 
> These are the numbers that Jenn found for me on Feb 9.
> 
> 
> 
> Results of 2015 Oct 19 election:
> 
> 35,749,600 - Population of Canada
> 
> 25,638,379 - Eligible Voters
> 
> 17,559,353 - Ballots cast
> 
> 8,214,532 - Effective votes
> 
> 9,106,926 - "Wasted" votes, elected no one.
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed the numbers don't add up;
> 
> 237,895 votes are unaccounted for.
> 
> Would there be that many spoiled ballots across the country?
> 
> 
> 
> But even if all of these were added to the effective votes, they're
> still far outnumbered by the votes which elected no one. That's
> scandalous.
> 
> 
> 
> Eleanor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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- -- 


- --
Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com> Phone: +1-519-635-9413
SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/
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