[fvc-wat-disc] Total ballots ...'wasted' votes

Bob Jonkman bjonkman at sobac.com
Tue Feb 28 14:51:40 EST 2017 

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John Cooper wrote:

> The fact is that only one candidate can be elected.

That's the case under our current FPTP system.

> Maybe our way of selecting our political leaders by votes is all
> wrong.

Yes!

> Is there another way?

Almost all the proposed systems for Proportional Representation are an
improvement. The main exception is block voting (choosing only a
party, not a candidate), and that's not being proposed by anyone for a
Canadian voting system.

- --Bob.



On 2017-02-27 11:48 PM, John Cooper wrote:
> Hi Stu
> 
> 
> 
> So based on your argument, all votes must elect the winner or none
> are of any value.
> 
> The fact is that only one candidate can be elected.
> 
> Why bother to have more than one political party and more than one
> candidate?
> 
> Or as George Washington proposed: no political parties.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the “make every vote count" phrase is the ‘wrong choice’?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe our way of selecting our political leaders by votes is all
> wrong.
> 
> Is there another way?
> 
> Is it possible to have consensus when thousands of people are
> selecting a representative?
> 
> 
> 
> Based on voter intentions and the results in the last election,
> more people are opposed to ‘first past the post’ than those who
> support it.
> 
> Trudeau and the Liberals have chosen to ignore this for their own
> purposes.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm from the older generation too.
> 
> There are many of ‘our generation’ who do not vote because they
> never did or they have become too cynical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: fvc-wat-disc
> [mailto:fvc-wat-disc-bounces at listserv.thinkers.org] On Behalf Of
> STUART CHANDLER Sent: February-27-17 10:46 PM To: John Cooper; 'FVC
> Waterloo Region Discussion' Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Total
> ballots ...
> 
> 
> 
> Hi John.
> 
> I'm not sure about others, but I choose to use the term "wasted
> vote" for a deliberate purpose. I use it for any potential shocking
> effect it might have on the reader/listener‎, and I always follow
> it with brackets stating something like: () to explain what I mean
> by "wasted vote".
> 
> I've heard others advance the theory that no vote is wasted, but I
> find I'm not interested ‎in pursuing that theory as I worry that
> the opponents of PR will simply use it as a way to justify their
> satisfaction with the status quo. I would not want to feed their
> addiction to FPTP.
> 
> 
> 
> My vote in 2015 was one of the more than 9 Million "wasted votes"‎,
> so I am taking it personally that the person I chose to support was
> beaten by someone I was opposed to, so I am effectively without
> representation in Parliament (at least from my riding - and it
> appears from most other ridings as well, particularly since all the
> Liberal MPs have betrayed those of us who were voting for the
> concept of electoral reform).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm from the older generation, many of whom will continue to
> exercise the civic responsibility to vote, even if my choice
> doesn't win. But many others are discouraged from voting because
> they do not expect their vote will actually affect the outcome.
> Consequently, I believe we need to stick with identifying such
> votes as wasted, in order to advance our cause "to make every vote
> count". ‎(Otherwise that phrase is pointless.)
> 
> 
> 
> Sincerely.
> 
> Stu Chandler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
> 
> 
> From: John Cooper
> 
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 5:55 PM
> 
> To: 'FVC Waterloo Region Discussion'
> 
> Reply To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> 
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Total ballots ...
> 
> 
> 
> in a democracy (whatever that is) , no vote is a ‘wasted vote’.
> Everyone who meets the criteria has a right – and a duty as a
> citizen - to vote.
> 
> It’s only wasted if you did not vote according to your principles
> and values for the person or party who shares those with you or you
> did not vote at all.
> 
> 
> 
> There’s a difference between a ‘wasted vote’ and a ‘principled
> vote’.
> 
> 
> 
> The real issue is whether the person elected receives more than a
> simple plurality of votes over the other candidates.
> 
> Is that democracy?
> 
> 
> 
> The people who voted for the ‘winners’ and are not happy with the
> decisions of those ‘winners’ after they gained power – those are
> wasted votes
> 
> because you did not vote according to your principles. You got
> ‘sucked in’ by the promises of liars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: fvc-wat-disc
> [mailto:fvc-wat-disc-bounces at listserv.thinkers.org] On Behalf Of
> Eleanor Grant Sent: February-27-17 5:08 PM To:
> fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] Total
> ballots ...
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Fair Voters -
> 
> 
> 
> These are the numbers that Jenn found for me on Feb 9.
> 
> 
> 
> Results of 2015 Oct 19 election:
> 
> 35,749,600 - Population of Canada
> 
> 25,638,379 - Eligible Voters
> 
> 17,559,353 - Ballots cast
> 
> 8,214,532 - Effective votes
> 
> 9,106,926 - "Wasted" votes, elected no one.
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed the numbers don't add up;
> 
> 237,895 votes are unaccounted for.
> 
> Would there be that many spoiled ballots across the country?
> 
> 
> 
> But even if all of these were added to the effective votes, they're
> still far outnumbered by the votes which elected no one.  That's
> scandalous.
> 
> 
> 
> Eleanor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
- -- 


- --
Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com>          Phone: +1-519-635-9413
SOBAC Microcomputer Services             http://sobac.com/sobac/
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