[fvc-wat-disc] Annual General Meeting: Wed, 21 June 2017

Anita Nickerson anitann88 at gmail.com
Wed Jun 28 20:45:58 EDT 2017 

Agreed, Dave.

It's the same with MMP. There are a sizable number of people in NZ,
Scotland and Wales - probably more so in the latter two - who do not
understand how the constituency and list seats are counted, the importance
of the party list vote relative to the constituency vote (which is kinda
crucial) and *HOW *those two votes result in the outcome in the
legislature.

That doesn't stop them from being able to use the system effectively.

The biggest problem has been in Wales where the issue of dual candidacy has
become - from what I've read so far in about four articles - a rather nasty
partisan struggle since 1999 with a mostly confused electorate (most of
whom don't follow the issue at all anyway) and the big parties allowing it,
allowing it but one of the big parties not doing it to make the other party
who relies mostly on list seats look bad, banning it, then allowing it
again and now they're all using it. Culture takes time to change...

The bland academic perspective on voter comprehension of MMP counting in
Scotland and Wales (and many other things related to the transition to MMP):


*http://www.victoria.ac.nz/law/centres/nzcpl/publications/nz-journal-of-public-and-international-law/previous-issues/volume-71,-june-2009/bradbury.pdf
<http://www.victoria.ac.nz/law/centres/nzcpl/publications/nz-journal-of-public-and-international-law/previous-issues/volume-71,-june-2009/bradbury.pdf>*
"





*Equally, there  is evidence that many voters do not fully understand how
the electoral systems work, leading to confusion over how to use the party
list vote. In Scotland there is considerable evidence that many
voters see the second vote, which helps to determine the allocation of
regional list seats, as a second preference vote. Equally,
there is widespread lack of understanding as to how these second votes
influence the  overall electoral outcome  of an  election. The  2007
Scottish  election suffered  particular problems  when the first
and second votes were joined together on one ballot paper and the
election was held  simultaneously with local government elections.
The number of rejected ballot papers was unusually  high at just over 4 per
cent for constituency votes and just under 3 per cent for regional list
votes.In addition, in both Scotland and Wales there have been claims that
voters do not understand how defeated  constituency candidates have  been
able  to be  elected  as  list representatives. Since  the  Government of
Wales Act 2006 (UK) this is no longer possible in Wales, but
in Scotland this can  still occur. Consequently, while  MMP  has  received
a  generally favourable reaction  from the  electorate,
there have been problems in both understanding
and implementation in Scotland  and Wales. The  public are aware of how
MMP has underpinned changes in party representation after elections; has
given  rise to new dynamics  for executive  formation  that have  made
coalition  and  minority  governments more common; has created some changes
in the kinds of people who represent them; and has created
Parliament/Assembly arithmetic in which opposition parties
can influence policy.*"

In Ireland, they had a Citizens Assembly in 2013 - it was 66 citizens and
34 TDs. They looked at whether to replace PR-STV with MMP.

They opted to keep PR-STV - 79 for STV, 20 for MMP, 1 abstention.

Overall, citizens in Ireland are happy with their electoral system,* even
if they don't fully understand how the counting works after the fact.*

Not because it's not understandable, but mainly because most people don't
care enough to look into it. I suspect it's the same in Scotland and Wales.

People know how to use it.

Most of them get the basic idea that it creates fairer results and
coalition/minoirty governments rather than one party governments.

In Ireland the public sees this as a GOOD THING (my favourite new poster -
"One Party Government - no thanks!" I borrowed from an Irish election). I
betcha in Germany it's the same thing.

In Scotland and Wales I would *guess *because MMP is so much newer there
and because they ALSO vote with FPTP for Westminster elections and are
therefore still heavily immersed in that political culture, that the
feelings towards coalitions are more mixed.


*I long ago concluded that as passionate as we are about this, we're
fighting for something that most people are never going to understand
because they have other things to do with their lives. *
That's the same with any policy.

That doesn't make it any less important.

In some ways, the fact that so many people are tuned out of politics makes
PR even more important.

Anita

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:

> I’ve mentioned to a number of people that, during our choir tour in
> Ireland last summer, I asked our guides, who were pretty savvy, if most
> Irish voters understood the mechanics of STV.
> They said no. However, it is apparent that they still like the system and
> probably wouldn’t want it changed.
> Dave A
>
> *From:* Anita Nickerson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 28, 2017 5:29 PM
> *To:* FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Annual General Meeting: Wed, 21 June 2017
>
> In future, now that these exec positions are so popular :), we could use
> the Opavote program to run the election like we do for our FVC council
> election. Carshare uses STV, too - could ask them how they do it.
>
> Probably people would have to say in advance that they were running and
> then people get an online link to vote.
>
> But probably with a small group (not that many ballots) there is a program
> easy enough that you could vote at the meeting and someone could just plug
> in the rankings from the papers right into the program.
>
> I think it's actually pretty neat that people there could see the piles of
> ballots being transferred.
>
> It took me a long time to get interested in PR-STV (now my favourite
> system:) because I thought it was too complicated to explain. A simple
> demonstration like this makes all the difference and can improve the
> confidence of volunteers in talking about PR.
>
> Anita
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
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>> I was hoping no-one would ask that :-)   We shuffled the ballots
>> before the first count, hoping for a random distribution of votes;
>> since Sharon's pile was built randomly the second choices should have
>> been distributed randomly.
>>
>> Yes, an arithmetical approach would have been ideal. And with a large
>> enough number of ballots, the results of a random selection of 7/9th
>> of the ballots should closely approximate the arithmetical result. But
>> with only 11 ballots cast it is possible that selecting a different
>> set of 7 may have had different results.
>>
>> It would have been more significant if there were more nominees vying
>> for a small number of positions. As it turns out, even Shannon Adshade
>> is happy with the result, so I hope no-one contests the election results.
>>
>> I did try to explain the surplus vote selection to a couple of people
>> who asked later in the evening. With a larger attendance at the AGM
>> there would also have been questions about determining the quota ("Why
>> not a Hare quota?", "Why not use the 'ceiling((votes+1)/(seats+1))'
>> Droop quota?"), and concerns about adherence to Condorcet outcomes...
>>
>> - --Bob
>>
>>
>> On 2017-06-28 04:30 PM, Jay Judkowitz wrote:
>> > OK, I'll be that guy...
>> >
>> > How did you decide which 7 of 9 we're Sharon's extra ballots?
>> >
>> > In reality would you have counted all 9 2nd place votes and
>> > multiplied the totally by .78?
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi everyone: Kevin Smith hasn't yet released the minutes of this
>> > year's AGM, but I do want to announce that Cathy Scott has been
>> > newly elected to the Fair Vote Waterloo Executive as a
>> > Member-At-Large.
>> >
>> > I want to thank Shannon Adshade, one of the founders of Fair Vote
>> > Waterloo, who has served on the Executive every year since we
>> > started in 2006! This year other commitments are keeping Shannon
>> > busy, so we're finally letting him off the hook.
>> >
>> > There were five Executive positions to be filled, and six nominees.
>> >  This is the first time since 2006 that we had to have an election
>> > for the executive, so we held an election using Single
>> > Transferable Vote. Members at the AGM placed nominees' names on the
>> > ballot in order of preference, from 1 to 6. There were 12 ballots
>> > cast, but as returning Co-chair I withheld my ballot, to be used in
>> > case of a tie. David Dolson and I were the "returning officers" to
>> > count the ballots.
>> >
>> > How many votes would it take to elect a nominee? We calculated the
>> >  "Droop Quota" -- the number of ballots cast divided by the
>> > number-of-positions-plus-one, rounded down to an integer, plus
>> > one[*].
>> >
>> >
>> > Droop Quota = int(ballots / (positions+1)) +1
>> >
>> > = int(11 / (5+1)) +1 = int(11 / 6) +1 = int(1.8) +1 = 2
>> >
>> > We placed the ballots in piles based on the first choice of each
>> > ballot. Cathy Scott received two ballots, Sharon Sommerville
>> > received nine, so both get a position on the board. The seven
>> > surplus ballots for Sharon were then re-distributed based on the
>> > second choice on each ballot:
>> >
>> > Kevin Smith: 2 Mo Markham: 2 Donald Fraser: 2 Shannon Adshade: 1
>> >
>> > So, our 2017-2018 Executive is elected! Sharon will resume the
>> > position of Co-Chair, and Kevin Smith resumes the position of
>> > Secretary, both two-year terms. Aden Seaman continues his second
>> > year as Treasurer, and I'm in the second year as Co-chair, with
>> > Mo, Donald, and Cathy serving one-year terms as Members-At-Large.
>> >
>> > Thanks to all who came out, and for the opportunity to "eat our own
>> >  dogfood" -- a computer industry term for actually using the
>> > things we build, or in our case, using the principles we advocate.
>> >
>> > --Bob.
>> >
>> >
>> > [*] Droop Quota: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droop_quota
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2017-06-18 11:09 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote:
>> >>>> Hi everyone: Just a quick reminder of our AGM this
>> >>>> Wednesday.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm making the reservation at ERK Monday evening. The Egg
>> >>>> Roll King Restaurant is a small place; if you're coming
>> >>>> please let us know by registering at
>> >>>> http://fairvotewrc.ca/?p=3834 (but nobody will be turned away
>> >>>> at the door!)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So far there has been one advance nomination for the
>> >>>> Executive; please let me know if you'd like to nominate
>> >>>> someone (or yourself). Nominations will also take place at
>> >>>> the meeting itself. You can also let me know if you want to
>> >>>> appoint a proxy for your vote.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> * Nominated: Shannon Adshade
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> See you Wednesday!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --Bob Jonkman Co-Chair, Fair Vote Waterloo
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 2017-06-08 11:16 AM, Bob Jonkman wrote:
>> >>>>> Hi everyone: Summer approaches, and it's time for the
>> >>>>> Annual General Meeting of the Fair Vote Canada Waterloo
>> >>>>> Region Chapter. Everyone is welcome to attend, and paid-up
>> >>>>> members can vote and run for a position on the Executive
>> >>>>> Board.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> *What*: Fair Vote Waterloo Annual General Meeting *When*:
>> >>>>> Wednesday, 21 June 2017 from 7:00pm to 9:00pm (6:00pm
>> >>>>> dinner) *Where*: Egg Roll King Restaurant *Location*: 85
>> >>>>> Courtland Avenue East, Kitchener, Ontario *Map*:
>> >>>>> https://osm.org/go/ZXnwS2Cx--?m=
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> == Agenda ==
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> 1) Review and acceptance of minutes from 2016 AGM
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> 2) Report from the Co-Chair and Chapter Co-ordinator,
>> >>>>> Sharon Sommerville
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> 3) Treasurer's Report
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> 4) Old business * Outreach program * Letter Writing Team
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> 4) Election of Fair Vote Waterloo Executive Board * All
>> >>>>> paid-up members of Fair Vote Canada are eligible to stand
>> >>>>> for nomination; only paid-up members can vote. Memberships
>> >>>>> can be paid at the meeting ($25/year, $10 for first year)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> * Proxy votes and self-nominations are allowed. You can
>> >>>>> nominate yourself even if you can't come to the meeting.
>> >>>>> E-mail me if you can't come, but want to run.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> * Three to Five members to be elected; they will choose
>> >>>>> amongst themselves which positions to fill: ** Co-Chair (2
>> >>>>> year term) ** Secretary (2 year term) ** 1 - 3 Members at
>> >>>>> Large (1 year term) ** The second Co-Chair (Bob Jonkman)
>> >>>>> and Treasurer (Aden Seaman) will complete the second year
>> >>>>> of their two-year term.  5) New Business * Summer Festivals
>> >>>>> - volunteers needed!
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> 6) Announcements
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> 7) Adjournment
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> 8) Discussion
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> == Registration ==
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Registration is optional, but will help with the
>> >>>>> reservation at the restaurant.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Register at:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/event/fair-vote-waterloo-
>> > annual-general-meeting-for-2017/#registration
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> The AGM will start at 7:00pm, but please join us for
>> >>>>> dinner at 6:00pm -- ERK has a small kitchen, and good food
>> >>>>> takes time to prepare.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> --Bob Jonkman  <bjonkman at sobac.com> Co-Chair, Fair Vote
>> >>>>> Waterloo
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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