[fvc-wat-disc] Trudeau spending the day with the Irish Taoiseach

Thu May 4 22:35:32 EDT 2017

I agree, Dave.

Voters can use STV no problem, they can see what local reps they elected,
most probably know it's proportional (they call it PR-STV). Good enough.

Since the MMP was implemented in NZ they've done assessments at different
times of how much people understand MMP. I remember there are still quite a
few people who don't understand that the party vote is more important than
the constituency vote or how that works. I doubt many could explain the
formula to award the list seats. Without ongoing explanations, if they have
no good civics program in schools (like here) I'm sure they are always
producing new voters who don't understand their system either but can still
use it.

I don't think that a majority of people in Canada could explain how 39% of
the vote can get 55% of the seats, and some don't understand even the
basics of how our system works now, like whether their vote does anything.
Some people think it works proportionally now - a good percentage - because
it makes intuitive sense. Most have never thought of it.

A good number of people probably don't wonder how the milk hits the shelf
in their grocery store, either, but they still buy it.

I saw a poll by Forum last year where 12% of people told them* we use the
ranked ballot system now*.

Unless you've never voted, not sure how you could think that.

This idea that that there has to be this massive education program where
people have to understand a voting system before change can go ahead (or
enough people have to jump up and down and show how knowledgeable and
excited they are about voting systems) is something politicians invent to
prevent change.

It makes them sound very democratic while giving them the excuse they want
to do nothing.

I betcha anything that Canada's had more electoral reform commissions than
any OECD country now.

I don't want our government to wait until I or my neighbour is sufficiently
educated or sufficiently excited to follow evidenced-based policy, make
good decisions and implement fairer programs for anything else. Only a
niche market understands or cares about ANY issue in depth, so based on
that formula, nothing would get done.

Those standards of public understanding and engagement, for good reason,
conveniently don't apply to anything else.

Anita

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:

> Just an addendum on the Republic of Ireland.
> We were on a choir tour of parts of Ireland last summer and I felt our
> tour guides were pretty knowledgeable.
> I asked them about Ireland’s STV voting system.
> While they agreed people were happy with the system, when I asked if most
> citizens had a good understanding of exactly how STV works, they admitted
> many don’t.
> While most of us will admit the workings of most PR systems are more
> complex than simple FPTP, that should not be an impediment to adopting PR.
> Dave
>
> *From:* Anita Nickerson
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 4, 2017 12:59 PM
> *To:* FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Trudeau spending the day with the Irish
> Taoiseach
>
> This is entertaining :).
>
> I'm working on a webinar for the end of May with a former Labour TD from
> Ireland. I talked to her for about half hour on the phone and the neatest
> thing is when you find out that all the good things you read and say about
> it works are actually how it works :)
>
> Since I became fascinated with the idea of PR-STV about a year ago, I am a
> bit more aware of Ireland's politics. Last election they had an anomoly -
> time since 1989 that they were unable to put together a majority
> (coalition) government. About 60 days of negotiations (lots of drama,
> President threatening to call a new election which would have fixed
> nothing).
>
> In the end they have a minority coalition government with 4 Independents
> in the cabinet. For some reason I just love this because it's so OPPOSITE
> what we have here. Our Liberal MPs I think can't imagine what would happen
> if they had to work with THOSE people. This kind of situation would
> probably give some of them nightmares. Better have a LOOONG study on how PR
> affects the "governance ecosystem" - to use the phrase from the Liberal
> ERRE report. I think "governance ecosystem" is code for: "How in the hell
> could I work with MPs from those other parties?"
>
> And while this isn't normal for Ireland, it shows that politicians can get
> creative and compromise and cooperate when they're pretty much out of other
> options!
>
> Can you imagine 4 Independents in Cabinet *here*? (Or even a few
> parties?).
>
> How would the one-man decision making work then? Oh, it wouldn't.
>
> How would the PMO Spin Machine work then? It wouldn't be quite so smooth
> or to the benefit of just one party.
>
> With such a supposedly "unstable" goverment, how does anything get done
> now in Ireland? Check this out:
>
>
> *http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ireland-votes-divest-fossil-fuels-climate-change-world-first-country-parliament-renewable-energy-a7549121.html
> <http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ireland-votes-divest-fossil-fuels-climate-change-world-first-country-parliament-renewable-energy-a7549121.html>*
>
> And this bill was put forward and passed by a TD who ISN'T in even in the
> minority coalition government, despite the big party in the coalition
> government voting no.
>
> Anita
>
> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:42 AM, Sharon Sommerville <
> sharonsommerville at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Stu,
>>
>> Thanks for following up.
>>
>> I don't tweet, and not very conversant with how it works.   I would check
>> the Government of Canada website info on MPs etc.   I am on my way out to
>> an appointment with my mom or I would look it up and put it out there.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:17 AM, STUART CHANDLER <stuchandler43 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Great idea.
>>> Please provide the best twitter address to reach him.
>>> Thanks.
>>> Stu
>>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>>> *From: *Sharon Sommerville
>>> *Sent: *Thursday, May 4, 2017 8:57 AM
>>> *To: *fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org; FVCchapters at yahoogroups.com
>>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>> *Subject: *[fvc-wat-disc] Trudeau spending the day with the Irish
>>> Taoiseach
>>>
>>> Good Morning Everyone,
>>>
>>> Between 11 a.m and 2 :30pm today, the PM is at various functions with
>>> the Irish Taoiseach (prime minister) Enda Kenny.  Does anyone follow the PM
>>> on twitter?  Can anyone tweet the PM to suggest that he ask Kenny about PR
>>> in Ireland  We should keep it up all day if possible.
>>>
>>> Have a great day,
>>> Sharon
>>>
>>>
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>>
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