[fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish
Sharon Sommerville
sharonsommerville at gmail.com
Tue Nov 21 20:47:25 EST 2017
Hello FairVoting Friends,
Heard from Bardish's office today. Her assistant, Dillion, was in touch to
thanks us for the 6 names and addresses that we provided yesterday and said
that they are waiting for the other two names before booking any time for
us. Dillion indicated that an appointment will likely be after Dec. 15th
when the House rises for Christmas break.
I asked for clarification around attendees from out of the riding but
within the Region. Hope to hear from him on that tomorrow & will get back
to everyone as soon as possible.
I would like share some thoughts with everyone in the hope of providing
some context for the meeting.
This meeting arose from a request by a Waterloo resident who attended the
meeting with Raj to meet with his MP, Bardish Chagger. The objective of
the meeting with Raj was to allow people to share their values and
perspectives on the principles of proportional representation and the
process of electoral reform. The meeting with Raj was an honest and
respectful exchange with a member of the party who promised electoral
reform and then pulled the plug on it.
My hope about the upcoming meeting with Bardish is that it would be more or
less the same; an opportunity to have a respectful, civil conversation with
a member of the government about why electoral reform is important to
individuals in her riding. It would serve to remind the government that
the promise of electoral reform meant something to people and that we hope
that change might still be possible.
If anyone is interested in attending, please let me know and provide your
address as it is a requirement for this meeting.
With thanks,
Sharon
On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Stephanie Janzen-Martin <
stephanie at janzenmartin.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the reply - I definitely appreciate it. :)
>
> I have also been left wondering what I'm missing. From what I have seen, a
> simple request has turned into some significant accusations. To me, this
> risks taking us off topic and creating other problems. If people are coming
> to the meeting viewing Bardish as a corrupt politician, I'm really
> concerned that will creep into the approach, even if people try to cover it
> up. That would be a loss for everybody, in my opinion.We may disagree with
> her on a policy piece, but there is nothing to be gained by going in
> viewing her as someone who engages in political intimidation - if anything,
> that approach will result in a poorly worded pitch, and create exactly the
> defensiveness we are already accusing her of.
>
> So, from my perspective, I see a simple misunderstanding (which, as far I
> can tell, nobody has tried to clear up with Bardish's office), and an
> opportunity to engage in a respectful policy discussion with a real human
> being, who is, presumably, doing her best in the midst of challenging
> circumstances. Doesn't mean everybody likes every decision - that's what
> discussion and accountability are for. :)
>
> If the group is approaching Bardish with a positive perspective (as a
> human being, who we agree with on many things, and are nudging a change on
> one thing), instead of a politician who is out to intimidate and suppress
> opposition, I am very happy to be part of the meeting. I have always found
> her lovely to work with, even through some challenging times. I hope to see
> that continue. :)
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> SJM
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:12 AM Corliss Olson <cpolson11 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I have been following this discussion, & have indicated that I am also
>> interested in attending this meeting with Ms. Chagger if I am available at
>> the time. My address is 24 - 74 Autumn Ridge Trail, Kitchener. I am in
>> Kitchener South-Hespler.
>>
>> Did I miss an email that said specifically that we are not
>> welcome/allowed to attend if we are not in the riding? I did see the
>> request for addresses, which struck me as perfectly reasonable to identify
>> constituents coming with concerns. (And I took the request for a Waterloo
>> address as a subtle hint, &/or a mechanism to "screen" for actual
>> constituents/voters in the riding.)
>>
>> I think that, as a Cabinet Minister, there is greater scope for attendees
>> -- although I think any of us visiting any MP should also be perfectly
>> acceptable. I do not feel nor do I see any hint of intimidation. And, even
>> if there were, why wouldn't we just show up? If we are too many for the
>> room, of course some of us would be excluded.
>>
>> I think the key points have to do with respectful presentation of our
>> concerns. And it's not a bad idea to spell out how this is good for the
>> governing party.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Corliss
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:04 AM, STUART CHANDLER <stuchandler43 at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I appreciate Evans desire to move forward and prepare for the meeting by
>>> discussing points relevant to ER & PR. And also Dave Arthur's
>>> observations about a Cabinet Minister having greater responsibilities to
>>> all Canadians as well as his previous experience with Bardish's
>>> defensiveness.
>>>
>>> I regret my role in us possibly getting sidetracked about issues like
>>> whether I should have felt intimidated or fears that the debate was
>>> becoming too negative.
>>>
>>> It is certain that those who oppose PR are happiest if they believe we
>>> are divided against one another.
>>>
>>> I can appreciate also that none of you know me very well, and may see my
>>> emotional responses as a concern. Those who do know me well have commended
>>> me for the respectful & caring way that I deal with others.
>>>
>>> My riding is Kitchener-Conestoga, so "my representative" in Parliament
>>> is a member of a party that presently does not represent my main values.
>>> So I am saddened and disappointed by the news that a neighbouring Liberal
>>> riding office would be less than welcoming - especially after campaigning
>>> on "Real Change", and promising to represent all Canadians & be open to
>>> hearing all perspectives.
>>>
>>> My point is: The relevance this has to PR is that the Liberals have been
>>> trying to promote the idea that, with them in power, PR is not necessary,
>>> since they will be so good at representing all Canadians. So I see this
>>> screening issue as further proof (proof that Bardish has provided) that PR
>>> is really needed (and that another promise has been broken).
>>>
>>> Thanks for listening.
>>>
>>> In peace.
>>>
>>> Stu
>>>
>>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>>> *From: *Evan Rosamond
>>> *Sent: *Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:26 AM
>>> *To: *fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish
>>>
>>> Hey Waterloonians,
>>>
>>> It's a relief that you seem to have decided not to be intimidated. Since
>>> I live in Kitchener, it seems I've been uninvited to Ms Chaggar's
>>> gathering.
>>>
>>> When you get to Bardish's office have your points all ready. Here's a
>>> sample of stuff you might want to talk about:
>>>
>>> - As far as we can tell from polls and our own door-knocking
>>> campaign, approximately 2/3 of the voters want the government to keep
>>> Trudeau's promise of 2015.
>>> - The main reason for all this is fairness. As much as possible we
>>> want a system fair to parties (number of seats proportional to a party's
>>> actual support), fair to candidates (no need for strategic voting), and
>>> fair to voters (nearly all votes should help some candidate get elected).
>>> - There is still time to get PR installed for the 2019 election, but
>>> the government will have to reverse their reversal soon.
>>> - However, there is no longer enough time to redraw the election
>>> map. This means that MMP and all its variations can't be considered if we
>>> want a fair election in 2019. That leaves only a 2-level open list system
>>> or one of the many variants of STV.
>>> - Any sort of PR will cost the Liberals some seats, based on 2015
>>> results. but it would give them more seats based on 2011 results. But since
>>> there will be minority governments nearly all the time, the Liberals could
>>> find themselves on the government side more or less perpetually, but they
>>> will have to share it.
>>> - PR will also give all national parties some MPs from all parts of
>>> Canada.
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>>
>>> Evan Rosamond
>>>
>>> On 11/20/2017 5:04 PM, Dave Arthur wrote:
>>>
>>> However, Bardish is a cabinet minister and isn’t she, as a member of the
>>> cabinet with responsibilities for Small Business and Tourism and Government
>>> House Leader, responsible to all Canadians, not just her own
>>> constituents????
>>> May I add that we must meet with her in a positive manner in any case.
>>> In my two meetings with her she becomes defensive quickly and can demean
>>> those who don’t agree with her or with the Trudeau government.
>>> However, it is our job to be ready for this and to have solid,
>>> well-prepared points to counter this.
>>> Dave A
>>>
>>> *From:* Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>> *Sent:* Monday, November 20, 2017 1:34 PM
>>> *To:* FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>> *Subject:* Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish
>>>
>>> Hi Anita,
>>>
>>> Thanks for that info. Very useful. :)
>>>
>>> SJM
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 12:59 PM Anita Nickerson <anitann88 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi folks. I'm only partially following this discussion.. but if it's
>>>> that Bardish's office wants the names and addresses of all attendees, so
>>>> that they will only allow people who live in the riding to attend, in
>>>> organizing MP visits with Liberals across the country in the past 1-2
>>>> years, that's pretty common practice for the assistant to require that.
>>>> Sometimes you can give them a few names and addresses and then kinda add
>>>> other people in who just show up with you. But they don't want to deal with
>>>> non-constituents.
>>>>
>>>> Anita
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Mary Jackes <mkj at bell.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, indeed. Anything other than a polite approach to a politician is
>>>>> completely counter-productive. Perhaps simply asking for clarification?
>>>>> That could present the opportunity to say that we find a requirement of
>>>>> details on the visiting group unprecedented.
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on 13 years of association with Fair Vote and other groups here
>>>>> in Waterloo, plus years in Alberta, I would say such a request is
>>>>> unprecedented. And it's for that reason that I find asking for names and
>>>>> addresses odd. Definitely "intimidation" comes in different forms in
>>>>> different countries (I've worked in several where intimidation could mean
>>>>> really bad things - for me up to and including a wall and a sub-machine gun
>>>>> in one country and being chased by armed goons through the night in
>>>>> another). But in Canadian terms.......... My reaction to Stu's email was
>>>>> that "intimidating" was a reasonable word for him to have used, in the
>>>>> sense of inducing anxiety.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mary.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/20/2017 10:16 AM, Stephanie Janzen-Martin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for the responses. I am all in favour of pushing MPs
>>>>> (respectfully), on policy issues. My only concern with how this email
>>>>> thread was going was that it seemed to be veering into territory that
>>>>> seemed unnecessarily harsh and negative - if we see our MP as treating
>>>>> people as second class citizens and intimidation etc, those are big claims,
>>>>> and I hesitate to throw them around lightly. (I've lived places where that
>>>>> is a real threat, and that kind of stuff actually does happen, and it looks
>>>>> very different from this - trust me! :)) Not that there isn't maybe a way
>>>>> that Bardish could have handled this better, but jumping to intimidation
>>>>> just seems unrealistic to me - especially since, as far I can tell, nobody
>>>>> has even asked her why she wanted the info. Feels like a lot of negative
>>>>> speculation that is very thin on facts. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would we confront Bardish (even if it is done politely) and tell
>>>>> her that some people didn't like her request, and are accusing her of
>>>>> intimidation, when we haven't even bothered to ask her why she asked for
>>>>> the info in the first place? Shouldn't we learn more first?
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's have a great chat with Bardish about PR and policy, and be smart
>>>>> and clear-headed about it. Let's not jump to falsely positive conclusions
>>>>> (overly naive), but let's also not jump to falsely negative conclusions
>>>>> (overly cynical).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> SJM
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:59 AM STUART CHANDLER <
>>>>> stuchandler43 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Stephanie (and all)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I, for one, certainly value your viewpoint. It's good to know you've
>>>>>> had a positive experience working with Bardish's office.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I always approach life from the perspective of "Expect
>>>>>> the Best", so, I want there to be no misunderstanding of my intent. I agree
>>>>>> 100% that we should approach EVERY meeting with ANY person or group from
>>>>>> that positive perspective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, I believe it is wise to consider all factors before such a
>>>>>> meeting, so as not to be blind-sided by something that, in retrospect we
>>>>>> should have seen coming. And we are left standing with mouths agape, not
>>>>>> knowing what say in response. I also believe it is possible to say
>>>>>> challenging things in very respectful ways.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my opinion, the best way to approach this would be to respectfully
>>>>>> advise her office of how the email is being received by some people, and to
>>>>>> add the assurance that we imagine that reaction was not intended.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have identified 3 reactions: 1) surprise and concern over the
>>>>>> introduction of a new practice in the visit to the MP's office. 2) the
>>>>>> feeling of intimidation generated. 3) the feeling of possible exclusion (or
>>>>>> being considered 2nd-class) if a prospective visitor lives in a different
>>>>>> riding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As we are a group that is focused on the promotion of increased
>>>>>> Democracy, I suggest that before we passively accept a new practice by an
>>>>>> MP, we consider if it is likely to advance the cause of Democracy (and
>>>>>> access to MPs) or more likely to have the opposite effect. To me, this
>>>>>> seems to have the opposite effect. And an MP should be respectfully
>>>>>> advised.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stu.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>>>>>> *From: *Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>>>>> *Sent: *Monday, November 20, 2017 9:00 AM
>>>>>> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardisheach meeting
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll add my thoughts in here, if you don't mind. I am not a
>>>>>> particular fan of the liberals (I'm NDP/Green) - but I have had several
>>>>>> issues where I have been working with Bardish's office (here and Ottawa)
>>>>>> for the last year or so. She and her staff have been extremely polite,
>>>>>> positive and helpful, while working with me on big questions, despite there
>>>>>> being no immediate fix available. (On another issue, they worked very hard
>>>>>> with me over several weeks and found an immediate solution, which was
>>>>>> great!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe she really is trying to secretly intimidate the opposition by
>>>>>> getting logistical info, or maybe this is a simple misunderstanding that is
>>>>>> being escalated every time someone else responds in the email thread. If
>>>>>> so, I am sure that any meeting we might get with her in this issue will be
>>>>>> compromised if we go in assuming the worst. How can we expect to work for
>>>>>> positive change if we are so convinced of such negative things about her,
>>>>>> based on so little info? If that is how the meeting is going to be
>>>>>> started, then I'd rather not be a part of it, since I already have a great
>>>>>> working relationship with her and her staff, and I don't want to jeopardize
>>>>>> it with these negative assumptions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All I'm saying is that I would give the benefit of the doubt and get
>>>>>> more info before assuming intimidation... :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SJM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 1:09 PM Mary Jackes <mkj at bell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I must say that this leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouth. It
>>>>>>> feels like intimidation.
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mary
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/18/2017 9:21 AM, STUART CHANDLER wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks Sharon for passing the Bardish email along.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Holy crap!! More proof that Bardish has a HUGE amount of nerve, and
>>>>>>> indulges in covert/overt intimidation (although I'm sure she would cleverly
>>>>>>> try to sell it as "genuine interest in her constituants". I have no doubt
>>>>>>> that she has a pretty clear sense of the effect that "interest" (in having
>>>>>>> the names and addresses of those interested in visiting her office -
>>>>>>> particularly if coming with intent to complain or challenge) would have on
>>>>>>> anyone so inclined.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>>>>>>> *From: *Sharon Sommerville
>>>>>>> *Sent: *Friday, November 17, 2017 8:08 PM
>>>>>>> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>>>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Cathe,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That would be great, thank you! Will
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is th email that I rec'd today from Bardish's constituency
>>>>>>> assistant:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Sharon,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for your email and for your call the other day, could you
>>>>>>> please let me know some info about who would like to meet? Could you please
>>>>>>> also provide their Waterloo addresses for our records?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks and I hope you’re having a great day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my experience, it is unheard of to screen constituents for a
>>>>>>> meeting with a MP. Let me know if you want to provide Bardish's office
>>>>>>> with your address.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sharon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>>>>> Find me at: Menno Adventures... https://
>>>>>> sustainabledevelopmentresources.wordpress.com Director of
>>>>>> Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>>>> Find me at: Menno Adventures... https://sustainabledevelopmentresource
>>>>> s.wordpress.com Director of Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Proportional representation delivers more of what YOU voted for!*
>>>> Sign the Declaration: www.fairvote.ca/declaration
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>>> --
>>>
>>> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>> Find me at: Menno Adventures... https://sustainabledevelopmentresource
>>> s.wordpress.com Director of Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>>>
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> --
>
> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
> Find me at: Menno Adventures... https://sustainabledevelopmentresource
> s.wordpress.com Director of Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>
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