[fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish

Stephanie Janzen-Martin stephanie at janzenmartin.net
Tue Nov 21 14:09:46 EST 2017 

Hi,

Thanks for the reply - I definitely appreciate it. :)

I have also been left wondering what I'm missing. From what I have seen, a
simple request has turned into some significant accusations. To me, this
risks taking us off topic and creating other problems. If people are coming
to the meeting viewing Bardish as a corrupt politician, I'm really
concerned that will creep into the approach, even if people try to cover it
up. That would be a loss for everybody, in my opinion.We may disagree with
her on a policy piece, but there is nothing to be gained by going in
viewing her as someone who engages in political intimidation - if anything,
that approach will result in a poorly worded pitch, and create exactly the
defensiveness we are already accusing her of.

So, from my perspective, I see a simple misunderstanding (which, as far I
can tell, nobody has tried to clear up with Bardish's office), and an
opportunity to engage in a respectful policy discussion with a real human
being, who is, presumably, doing her best in the midst of challenging
circumstances. Doesn't mean everybody likes every decision - that's what
discussion and accountability are for. :)

 If the group is approaching Bardish with a positive perspective (as a
human being, who we agree with on many things, and are nudging a change on
one thing), instead of a politician who is out to intimidate and suppress
opposition, I am very happy to be part of the meeting. I have always found
her lovely to work with, even through some challenging times. I hope to see
that continue. :)

Just my thoughts,

SJM

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:12 AM Corliss Olson <cpolson11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I have been following this discussion, & have indicated that I am also
> interested in attending this meeting with Ms. Chagger if I am available at
> the time. My address is 24 - 74 Autumn Ridge Trail, Kitchener. I am in
> Kitchener South-Hespler.
>
> Did I miss an email that said specifically that we are not welcome/allowed
> to attend if we are not in the riding? I did see the request for addresses,
> which struck me as perfectly reasonable to identify constituents coming
> with concerns. (And I took the request for a Waterloo address as a subtle
> hint, &/or a mechanism to "screen" for actual constituents/voters in the
> riding.)
>
> I think that, as a Cabinet Minister, there is greater scope for attendees
> -- although I think any of us visiting any MP should also be perfectly
> acceptable. I do not feel nor do I see any hint of intimidation. And, even
> if there were, why wouldn't we just show up? If we are too many for the
> room, of course some of us would be excluded.
>
> I think the key points have to do with respectful presentation of our
> concerns. And it's not a bad idea to spell out how this is good for the
> governing party.
>
> Thanks,
> Corliss
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:04 AM, STUART CHANDLER <stuchandler43 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I appreciate Evans desire to move forward and prepare for the meeting by
>> discussing points relevant to ‎ER & PR.  And also Dave Arthur's
>> observations about a Cabinet Minister having greater responsibilities to
>> all Canadians as well as his previous experience with Bardish's
>> defensiveness.
>>
>> I regret my role in us possibly getting sidetracked about issues like
>> whether ‎I should have felt intimidated or fears that the debate was
>> becoming too negative.
>>
>> It is certain that those who oppose PR are happiest if they believe we
>> are divided against‎ one another.
>>
>> I can appreciate also that none of you know me very well, and may see my
>> emotional responses as a concern. Those who do know me well have commended
>> me for the respectful & caring way that I deal with others.
>>
>> My riding is Kitchener-Conestoga, so "my representative" in Parliament is
>> a member of a party that presently does not represent my main values‎. So I
>> am saddened and disappointed by the news that a neighbouring Liberal riding
>> office would be less than welcoming - especially after campaigning on "Real
>> Change", and promising to represent all Canadians & be open to hearing all
>> perspectives.
>>
>> My point is: The relevance this has to PR is that the Liberals have been
>> trying to promote the idea that, with them in power, PR is not necessary,
>> since they will be so good at representing all Canadians. So I see this
>> screening issue as further proof (proof that Bardish has provided) that PR
>> is really needed (and that another promise has been broken).
>>
>> Thanks for listening.
>>
>> In peace.
>>
>> Stu
>>
>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>> *From: *Evan Rosamond
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:26 AM
>> *To: *fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish
>>
>> Hey Waterloonians,
>>
>> It's a relief that you seem to have decided not to be intimidated. Since
>> I live in Kitchener, it seems I've been uninvited to Ms Chaggar's
>> gathering.
>>
>> When you get to Bardish's office have your points all ready. Here's a
>> sample of stuff you might want to talk about:
>>
>>    - As far as we can tell from polls and our own door-knocking
>>    campaign, approximately 2/3 of the voters want the government to keep
>>    Trudeau's promise of 2015.
>>    - The main reason for all this is fairness. As much as possible we
>>    want a system fair to parties (number of seats proportional to a party's
>>    actual support), fair to candidates (no need for strategic voting), and
>>    fair to voters (nearly all votes should help some candidate get elected).
>>    - There is still time to get PR installed for the 2019 election, but
>>    the government will have to reverse their reversal soon.
>>    - However, there is no longer enough time to redraw the election map.
>>    This means that MMP and all its variations can't be considered if we want a
>>    fair election in 2019. That leaves only a 2-level open list system or one
>>    of the many variants of STV.
>>    - Any sort of PR will cost the Liberals some seats, based on 2015
>>    results. but it would give them more seats based on 2011 results. But since
>>    there will be minority governments nearly all the time, the Liberals could
>>    find themselves on the government side more or less perpetually, but they
>>    will have to share it.
>>    - PR will also give all national parties some MPs from all parts of
>>    Canada.
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>> Evan Rosamond
>>
>> On 11/20/2017 5:04 PM, Dave Arthur wrote:
>>
>> However, Bardish is a cabinet minister and isn’t she, as a member of the
>> cabinet with responsibilities for Small Business and Tourism and Government
>> House Leader, responsible to all Canadians, not just her own
>> constituents????
>> May I add that we must meet with her in a positive manner in any case.
>> In my two meetings with her she becomes defensive quickly and can demean
>> those who don’t agree with her or with the Trudeau government.
>> However, it is our job to be ready for this and to have solid,
>> well-prepared points to counter this.
>> Dave A
>>
>> *From:* Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 20, 2017 1:34 PM
>> *To:* FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>> *Subject:* Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish
>>
>> Hi Anita,
>>
>> Thanks for that info. Very useful. :)
>>
>> SJM
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 12:59 PM Anita Nickerson <anitann88 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi folks. I'm only partially following this discussion.. but if it's
>>> that Bardish's office wants the names and addresses of all attendees, so
>>> that they will only allow people who live in the riding to attend, in
>>> organizing MP visits with Liberals across the country in the past 1-2
>>> years, that's pretty common practice for the assistant to require that.
>>> Sometimes you can give them a few names and addresses and then kinda add
>>> other people in who just show up with you. But they don't want to deal with
>>> non-constituents.
>>>
>>> Anita
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Mary Jackes <mkj at bell.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, indeed.  Anything other than a polite approach to a politician is
>>>> completely counter-productive.  Perhaps simply asking for clarification?
>>>> That could present the opportunity to say that we find a requirement of
>>>> details on the visiting group unprecedented.
>>>>
>>>> Based on 13 years of association with Fair Vote and other groups here
>>>> in Waterloo, plus years in Alberta, I would say such a request is
>>>> unprecedented.  And it's for that reason that I find asking for names and
>>>> addresses odd.  Definitely "intimidation" comes in different forms in
>>>> different countries (I've worked in several where intimidation could mean
>>>> really bad things - for me up to and including a wall and a sub-machine gun
>>>> in one country and being chased by armed goons through the night in
>>>> another).  But in Canadian terms.......... My reaction to Stu's email was
>>>> that "intimidating" was a reasonable word for him to have used, in the
>>>> sense of inducing anxiety.
>>>>
>>>> Mary.
>>>>
>>>> On 11/20/2017 10:16 AM, Stephanie Janzen-Martin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for the responses. I am all in favour of pushing MPs
>>>> (respectfully), on policy issues. My only concern with how this email
>>>> thread was going was that it seemed to be veering into territory that
>>>> seemed unnecessarily harsh and negative - if we see our MP as treating
>>>> people as second class citizens and intimidation etc, those are big claims,
>>>> and I hesitate to throw them around lightly. (I've lived places where that
>>>> is a real threat, and that kind of stuff actually does happen, and it looks
>>>> very different from this - trust me! :)) Not that there isn't maybe a way
>>>> that Bardish could have handled this better, but jumping to intimidation
>>>> just seems unrealistic to me - especially since, as far I can tell, nobody
>>>> has even asked her why she wanted the info. Feels like a lot of negative
>>>> speculation that is very thin on facts. :)
>>>>
>>>> Why would we confront Bardish (even if it is done politely) and tell
>>>> her that some people didn't like her request, and are accusing her of
>>>> intimidation, when we haven't even bothered to ask her why she asked for
>>>> the info in the first place? Shouldn't we learn more first?
>>>>
>>>> Let's have a great chat with Bardish about PR and policy, and be smart
>>>> and clear-headed about it. Let's not jump to falsely positive conclusions
>>>> (overly naive), but let's also not jump to falsely negative conclusions
>>>> (overly cynical).
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> SJM
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:59 AM STUART CHANDLER <
>>>> stuchandler43 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Stephanie‎ (and all)
>>>>>
>>>>> I, for one, certainly value your viewpoint. It's good to know you've
>>>>> had a positive experience working with Bardish's office.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I always approach life from the perspective of "Expect the
>>>>> Best", so, I want there to be no misunderstanding of my intent. I agree
>>>>> 100% that we should approach EVERY meeting with ANY person or group from
>>>>> that positive perspective.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I believe it is wise to consider all factors before such a
>>>>> meeting, so as not to be blind-sided by something that, in retrospect we
>>>>> should have seen coming. And we are left standing with mouths agape, not
>>>>> knowing what say in response. I also believe it is possible to say
>>>>> challenging things ‎in very respectful ways.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, the best way to approach this would be to respectfully
>>>>> advise her office of how the email is being received by some people, and to
>>>>> add the assurance that we imagine that reaction was not intended.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have identified 3 reactions: 1) surprise and concern over the
>>>>> introduction of a new practice in the visit to the MP's office. ‎2) the
>>>>> feeling of intimidation generated. 3) the feeling of possible exclusion (or
>>>>> being considered 2nd-class) if a prospective visitor lives in a different
>>>>> riding.
>>>>>
>>>>> As we are a group that is focused on the promotion of increased
>>>>> Democracy, I suggest that before we passively accept a new practice by an
>>>>> MP, we consider if it is likely to advance the cause of Democracy (and
>>>>> access to MPs) or more likely to have the opposite effect. ‎To me, this
>>>>> seems to have the opposite effect. And an MP should be respectfully
>>>>> advised.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stu.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>>>>> *From: *Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>>>> *Sent: *Monday, November 20, 2017 9:00 AM
>>>>> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardisheach meeting ‎
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll add my thoughts in here, if you don't mind. I am not a particular
>>>>> fan of the liberals (I'm NDP/Green) - but I have had several issues where I
>>>>> have been working with Bardish's office (here and Ottawa) for the last year
>>>>> or so. She and her staff have been extremely polite, positive and helpful,
>>>>> while working with me on big questions, despite there being no immediate
>>>>> fix available. (On another issue, they worked very hard with me over
>>>>> several weeks and found an immediate solution, which was great!)
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe she really is trying to secretly intimidate the opposition by
>>>>> getting logistical info, or maybe this is a simple misunderstanding that is
>>>>> being escalated every time someone else responds in the email thread. If
>>>>> so, I am sure that any meeting we might get with her in this issue will be
>>>>> compromised if we go in assuming the worst. How can we expect to work for
>>>>> positive change if we are so convinced of such negative things about her,
>>>>> based on so little info?  If that is how the meeting is going to be
>>>>> started, then I'd rather not be a part of it, since I already have a great
>>>>> working relationship with her and her staff, and I don't want to jeopardize
>>>>> it with these negative assumptions.
>>>>>
>>>>> All I'm saying is that I would give the benefit of the doubt and get
>>>>> more info before assuming intimidation... :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>>
>>>>> SJM
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 1:09 PM Mary Jackes <mkj at bell.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I must say that this leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouth.  It
>>>>>> feels like intimidation.
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/18/2017 9:21 AM, STUART CHANDLER wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Sharon for passing the Bardish email along.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Holy crap!!  More proof that Bardish has a HUGE amount of nerve, and
>>>>>> indulges in covert/overt intimidation (although I'm sure she would cleverly
>>>>>> try to sell it as "genuine interest in her constituants". ‎ I have no doubt
>>>>>> that she has a pretty clear sense of the effect that "interest" (in having
>>>>>> the names and addresses of those interested in visiting her office -
>>>>>> particularly if coming with intent to complain or challenge) would have on
>>>>>> anyone so inclined.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>>>>>> *From: *Sharon Sommerville
>>>>>> *Sent: *Friday, November 17, 2017 8:08 PM
>>>>>> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Cathe,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That would be great, thank you!  Will
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is th email that I rec'd today from Bardish's constituency
>>>>>> assistant:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Sharon,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for your email and for your call the other day, could you
>>>>>> please let me know some info about who would like to meet? Could you please
>>>>>> also provide their Waterloo addresses for our records?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks and I hope you’re having a great day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my experience, it is unheard of to screen constituents for a
>>>>>> meeting with a MP.  Let me know if you want to provide Bardish's office
>>>>>> with your address.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sharon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>>>> Find me at: Menno Adventures...
>>>>> https://sustainabledevelopmentresources.wordpress.com     Director of
>>>>> Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>>> Find me at: Menno Adventures...
>>>> https://sustainabledevelopmentresources.wordpress.com     Director of
>>>> Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>> Find me at: Menno Adventures...
>> https://sustainabledevelopmentresources.wordpress.com     Director of
>> Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>>
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Stephanie Janzen-Martin
Find me at: Menno Adventures...
https://sustainabledevelopmentresources.wordpress.com     Director of
Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
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