[fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish

Sharon Sommerville sharonsommerville at gmail.com
Thu Nov 23 18:26:24 EST 2017 

Thank you Stephanie.  I plan to email Dilion tomorrow and will pass your
name & address along.

Hope to hear something next week from Bardish's office.  Will update
everyone as soon as we have a confirmed date & time.

Cheers,
Sharon

On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Stephanie Janzen-Martin <
stephanie at janzenmartin.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> If adding my name/address to the list is helpful, I'm happy to do that as
> well. I'm hoping to attend the meeting, depending on scheduling. It's 354
> Boxbury Dr in Waterloo.
>
> SJM
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 8:48 PM Sharon Sommerville <
> sharonsommerville at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello FairVoting Friends,
>>
>> Heard from Bardish's office today.  Her assistant, Dillion, was in touch
>> to thanks us for the 6 names and addresses that we provided yesterday and
>> said that they are waiting for the other two names before booking any time
>> for us.  Dillion indicated that an appointment will likely be after Dec.
>> 15th when the House rises for Christmas break.
>>
>> I asked for clarification around attendees from out of the riding but
>> within the Region.  Hope to hear from him on that tomorrow & will get back
>> to everyone as soon as possible.
>>
>> I would like share some thoughts with everyone in the hope of providing
>> some context for the meeting.
>>
>> This meeting arose from a request by a Waterloo resident who attended the
>> meeting with Raj to meet with his MP, Bardish Chagger.  The objective of
>> the meeting with Raj was to allow people to share their values and
>> perspectives on the principles of proportional representation and the
>> process of electoral reform.  The meeting with Raj was an honest and
>> respectful exchange with a member of the party who promised electoral
>> reform and then pulled the plug on it.
>>
>> My hope about the upcoming meeting with Bardish is that it would be more
>> or less the same; an opportunity to have a respectful, civil conversation
>> with a member of the government about why electoral reform is important to
>> individuals in her riding.  It would serve to remind the government that
>> the promise of electoral reform meant something to people and that we hope
>> that change might still be possible.
>>
>> If anyone is interested in attending, please let me know and provide your
>> address as it is a requirement for this meeting.
>>
>> With thanks,
>> Sharon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Stephanie Janzen-Martin <
>> stephanie at janzenmartin.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the reply - I definitely appreciate it. :)
>>>
>>> I have also been left wondering what I'm missing. From what I have seen,
>>> a simple request has turned into some significant accusations. To me, this
>>> risks taking us off topic and creating other problems. If people are coming
>>> to the meeting viewing Bardish as a corrupt politician, I'm really
>>> concerned that will creep into the approach, even if people try to cover it
>>> up. That would be a loss for everybody, in my opinion.We may disagree with
>>> her on a policy piece, but there is nothing to be gained by going in
>>> viewing her as someone who engages in political intimidation - if anything,
>>> that approach will result in a poorly worded pitch, and create exactly the
>>> defensiveness we are already accusing her of.
>>>
>>> So, from my perspective, I see a simple misunderstanding (which, as far
>>> I can tell, nobody has tried to clear up with Bardish's office), and an
>>> opportunity to engage in a respectful policy discussion with a real human
>>> being, who is, presumably, doing her best in the midst of challenging
>>> circumstances. Doesn't mean everybody likes every decision - that's what
>>> discussion and accountability are for. :)
>>>
>>>  If the group is approaching Bardish with a positive perspective (as a
>>> human being, who we agree with on many things, and are nudging a change on
>>> one thing), instead of a politician who is out to intimidate and suppress
>>> opposition, I am very happy to be part of the meeting. I have always found
>>> her lovely to work with, even through some challenging times. I hope to see
>>> that continue. :)
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>
>>> SJM
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:12 AM Corliss Olson <cpolson11 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I have been following this discussion, & have indicated that I am also
>>>> interested in attending this meeting with Ms. Chagger if I am available at
>>>> the time. My address is 24 - 74 Autumn Ridge Trail, Kitchener. I am in
>>>> Kitchener South-Hespler.
>>>>
>>>> Did I miss an email that said specifically that we are not
>>>> welcome/allowed to attend if we are not in the riding? I did see the
>>>> request for addresses, which struck me as perfectly reasonable to identify
>>>> constituents coming with concerns. (And I took the request for a Waterloo
>>>> address as a subtle hint, &/or a mechanism to "screen" for actual
>>>> constituents/voters in the riding.)
>>>>
>>>> I think that, as a Cabinet Minister, there is greater scope for
>>>> attendees -- although I think any of us visiting any MP should also be
>>>> perfectly acceptable. I do not feel nor do I see any hint of intimidation.
>>>> And, even if there were, why wouldn't we just show up? If we are too many
>>>> for the room, of course some of us would be excluded.
>>>>
>>>> I think the key points have to do with respectful presentation of our
>>>> concerns. And it's not a bad idea to spell out how this is good for the
>>>> governing party.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Corliss
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:04 AM, STUART CHANDLER <
>>>> stuchandler43 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate Evans desire to move forward and prepare for the meeting
>>>>> by discussing points relevant to ‎ER & PR.  And also Dave Arthur's
>>>>> observations about a Cabinet Minister having greater responsibilities to
>>>>> all Canadians as well as his previous experience with Bardish's
>>>>> defensiveness.
>>>>>
>>>>> I regret my role in us possibly getting sidetracked about issues like
>>>>> whether ‎I should have felt intimidated or fears that the debate was
>>>>> becoming too negative.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is certain that those who oppose PR are happiest if they believe we
>>>>> are divided against‎ one another.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can appreciate also that none of you know me very well, and may see
>>>>> my emotional responses as a concern. Those who do know me well have
>>>>> commended me for the respectful & caring way that I deal with others.
>>>>>
>>>>> My riding is Kitchener-Conestoga, so "my representative" in Parliament
>>>>> is a member of a party that presently does not represent my main values‎.
>>>>> So I am saddened and disappointed by the news that a neighbouring Liberal
>>>>> riding office would be less than welcoming - especially after campaigning
>>>>> on "Real Change", and promising to represent all Canadians & be open to
>>>>> hearing all perspectives.
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is: The relevance this has to PR is that the Liberals have
>>>>> been trying to promote the idea that, with them in power, PR is not
>>>>> necessary, since they will be so good at representing all Canadians. So I
>>>>> see this screening issue as further proof (proof that Bardish has provided)
>>>>> that PR is really needed (and that another promise has been broken).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for listening.
>>>>>
>>>>> In peace.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stu
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>>>>> *From: *Evan Rosamond
>>>>> *Sent: *Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:26 AM
>>>>> *To: *fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Waterloonians,
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a relief that you seem to have decided not to be intimidated.
>>>>> Since I live in Kitchener, it seems I've been uninvited to Ms Chaggar's
>>>>> gathering.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you get to Bardish's office have your points all ready. Here's a
>>>>> sample of stuff you might want to talk about:
>>>>>
>>>>>    - As far as we can tell from polls and our own door-knocking
>>>>>    campaign, approximately 2/3 of the voters want the government to keep
>>>>>    Trudeau's promise of 2015.
>>>>>    - The main reason for all this is fairness. As much as possible we
>>>>>    want a system fair to parties (number of seats proportional to a party's
>>>>>    actual support), fair to candidates (no need for strategic voting), and
>>>>>    fair to voters (nearly all votes should help some candidate get elected).
>>>>>    - There is still time to get PR installed for the 2019 election,
>>>>>    but the government will have to reverse their reversal soon.
>>>>>    - However, there is no longer enough time to redraw the election
>>>>>    map. This means that MMP and all its variations can't be considered if we
>>>>>    want a fair election in 2019. That leaves only a 2-level open list system
>>>>>    or one of the many variants of STV.
>>>>>    - Any sort of PR will cost the Liberals some seats, based on 2015
>>>>>    results. but it would give them more seats based on 2011 results. But since
>>>>>    there will be minority governments nearly all the time, the Liberals could
>>>>>    find themselves on the government side more or less perpetually, but they
>>>>>    will have to share it.
>>>>>    - PR will also give all national parties some MPs from all parts
>>>>>    of Canada.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck!
>>>>>
>>>>> Evan Rosamond
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/20/2017 5:04 PM, Dave Arthur wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> However, Bardish is a cabinet minister and isn’t she, as a member of
>>>>> the cabinet with responsibilities for Small Business and Tourism and
>>>>> Government House Leader, responsible to all Canadians, not just her own
>>>>> constituents????
>>>>> May I add that we must meet with her in a positive manner in any case.
>>>>> In my two meetings with her she becomes defensive quickly and can
>>>>> demean those who don’t agree with her or with the Trudeau government.
>>>>> However, it is our job to be ready for this and to have solid,
>>>>> well-prepared points to counter this.
>>>>> Dave A
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, November 20, 2017 1:34 PM
>>>>> *To:* FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Anita,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for that info. Very useful. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> SJM
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 12:59 PM Anita Nickerson <anitann88 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi folks. I'm only partially following this discussion.. but if it's
>>>>>> that Bardish's office wants the names and addresses of all attendees, so
>>>>>> that they will only allow people who live in the riding to attend, in
>>>>>> organizing MP visits with Liberals across the country in the past 1-2
>>>>>> years, that's pretty common practice for the assistant to require that.
>>>>>> Sometimes you can give them a few names and addresses and then kinda add
>>>>>> other people in who just show up with you. But they don't want to deal with
>>>>>> non-constituents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anita
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Mary Jackes <mkj at bell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, indeed.  Anything other than a polite approach to a politician
>>>>>>> is completely counter-productive.  Perhaps simply asking for
>>>>>>> clarification?  That could present the opportunity to say that we find a
>>>>>>> requirement of details on the visiting group unprecedented.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Based on 13 years of association with Fair Vote and other groups
>>>>>>> here in Waterloo, plus years in Alberta, I would say such a request is
>>>>>>> unprecedented.  And it's for that reason that I find asking for names and
>>>>>>> addresses odd.  Definitely "intimidation" comes in different forms in
>>>>>>> different countries (I've worked in several where intimidation could mean
>>>>>>> really bad things - for me up to and including a wall and a sub-machine gun
>>>>>>> in one country and being chased by armed goons through the night in
>>>>>>> another).  But in Canadian terms.......... My reaction to Stu's email was
>>>>>>> that "intimidating" was a reasonable word for him to have used, in the
>>>>>>> sense of inducing anxiety.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/20/2017 10:16 AM, Stephanie Janzen-Martin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for the responses. I am all in favour of pushing MPs
>>>>>>> (respectfully), on policy issues. My only concern with how this email
>>>>>>> thread was going was that it seemed to be veering into territory that
>>>>>>> seemed unnecessarily harsh and negative - if we see our MP as treating
>>>>>>> people as second class citizens and intimidation etc, those are big claims,
>>>>>>> and I hesitate to throw them around lightly. (I've lived places where that
>>>>>>> is a real threat, and that kind of stuff actually does happen, and it looks
>>>>>>> very different from this - trust me! :)) Not that there isn't maybe a way
>>>>>>> that Bardish could have handled this better, but jumping to intimidation
>>>>>>> just seems unrealistic to me - especially since, as far I can tell, nobody
>>>>>>> has even asked her why she wanted the info. Feels like a lot of negative
>>>>>>> speculation that is very thin on facts. :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would we confront Bardish (even if it is done politely) and tell
>>>>>>> her that some people didn't like her request, and are accusing her of
>>>>>>> intimidation, when we haven't even bothered to ask her why she asked for
>>>>>>> the info in the first place? Shouldn't we learn more first?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's have a great chat with Bardish about PR and policy, and be
>>>>>>> smart and clear-headed about it. Let's not jump to falsely positive
>>>>>>> conclusions (overly naive), but let's also not jump to falsely negative
>>>>>>> conclusions (overly cynical).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SJM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:59 AM STUART CHANDLER <
>>>>>>> stuchandler43 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Stephanie‎ (and all)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I, for one, certainly value your viewpoint. It's good to know
>>>>>>>> you've had a positive experience working with Bardish's office.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Personally, I always approach life from the perspective of "Expect
>>>>>>>> the Best", so, I want there to be no misunderstanding of my intent. I agree
>>>>>>>> 100% that we should approach EVERY meeting with ANY person or group from
>>>>>>>> that positive perspective.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, I believe it is wise to consider all factors before such a
>>>>>>>> meeting, so as not to be blind-sided by something that, in retrospect we
>>>>>>>> should have seen coming. And we are left standing with mouths agape, not
>>>>>>>> knowing what say in response. I also believe it is possible to say
>>>>>>>> challenging things ‎in very respectful ways.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my opinion, the best way to approach this would be to
>>>>>>>> respectfully advise her office of how the email is being received by some
>>>>>>>> people, and to add the assurance that we imagine that reaction was not
>>>>>>>> intended.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have identified 3 reactions: 1) surprise and concern over the
>>>>>>>> introduction of a new practice in the visit to the MP's office. ‎2) the
>>>>>>>> feeling of intimidation generated. 3) the feeling of possible exclusion (or
>>>>>>>> being considered 2nd-class) if a prospective visitor lives in a different
>>>>>>>> riding.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As we are a group that is focused on the promotion of increased
>>>>>>>> Democracy, I suggest that before we passively accept a new practice by an
>>>>>>>> MP, we consider if it is likely to advance the cause of Democracy (and
>>>>>>>> access to MPs) or more likely to have the opposite effect. ‎To me, this
>>>>>>>> seems to have the opposite effect. And an MP should be respectfully
>>>>>>>> advised.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stu.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>>>>>>>> *From: *Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>>>>>>> *Sent: *Monday, November 20, 2017 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>>>>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardisheach meeting ‎
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll add my thoughts in here, if you don't mind. I am not a
>>>>>>>> particular fan of the liberals (I'm NDP/Green) - but I have had several
>>>>>>>> issues where I have been working with Bardish's office (here and Ottawa)
>>>>>>>> for the last year or so. She and her staff have been extremely polite,
>>>>>>>> positive and helpful, while working with me on big questions, despite there
>>>>>>>> being no immediate fix available. (On another issue, they worked very hard
>>>>>>>> with me over several weeks and found an immediate solution, which was
>>>>>>>> great!)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe she really is trying to secretly intimidate the opposition by
>>>>>>>> getting logistical info, or maybe this is a simple misunderstanding that is
>>>>>>>> being escalated every time someone else responds in the email thread. If
>>>>>>>> so, I am sure that any meeting we might get with her in this issue will be
>>>>>>>> compromised if we go in assuming the worst. How can we expect to work for
>>>>>>>> positive change if we are so convinced of such negative things about her,
>>>>>>>> based on so little info?  If that is how the meeting is going to be
>>>>>>>> started, then I'd rather not be a part of it, since I already have a great
>>>>>>>> working relationship with her and her staff, and I don't want to jeopardize
>>>>>>>> it with these negative assumptions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All I'm saying is that I would give the benefit of the doubt and
>>>>>>>> get more info before assuming intimidation... :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SJM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 1:09 PM Mary Jackes <mkj at bell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I must say that this leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouth.  It
>>>>>>>>> feels like intimidation.
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mary
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/18/2017 9:21 AM, STUART CHANDLER wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks Sharon for passing the Bardish email along.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Holy crap!!  More proof that Bardish has a HUGE amount of nerve,
>>>>>>>>> and indulges in covert/overt intimidation (although I'm sure she would
>>>>>>>>> cleverly try to sell it as "genuine interest in her constituants". ‎ I have
>>>>>>>>> no doubt that she has a pretty clear sense of the effect that "interest"
>>>>>>>>> (in having the names and addresses of those interested in visiting her
>>>>>>>>> office - particularly if coming with intent to complain or challenge) would
>>>>>>>>> have on anyone so inclined.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
>>>>>>>>> *From: *Sharon Sommerville
>>>>>>>>> *Sent: *Friday, November 17, 2017 8:08 PM
>>>>>>>>> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>>>>>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Meeting with Bardish
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Cathe,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That would be great, thank you!  Will
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is th email that I rec'd today from Bardish's constituency
>>>>>>>>> assistant:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Sharon,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your email and for your call the other day, could you
>>>>>>>>> please let me know some info about who would like to meet? Could you please
>>>>>>>>> also provide their Waterloo addresses for our records?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks and I hope you’re having a great day.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In my experience, it is unheard of to screen constituents for a
>>>>>>>>> meeting with a MP.  Let me know if you want to provide Bardish's office
>>>>>>>>> with your address.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sharon
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/
>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>>>>>>> Find me at: Menno Adventures... https://
>>>>>>>> sustainabledevelopmentresources.wordpress.com     Director of
>>>>>>>> Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>>>>>> Find me at: Menno Adventures... https://
>>>>>>> sustainabledevelopmentresources.wordpress.com     Director of
>>>>>>> Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> *Proportional representation delivers more of what YOU voted for!*
>>>>>> Sign the Declaration: www.fairvote.ca/declaration
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>>>> Find me at: Menno Adventures... https://sustainabledevelopmentresource
>>>>> s.wordpress.com     Director of Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> --
>>>
>>> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
>>> Find me at: Menno Adventures... https://sustainabledevelopmentresource
>>> s.wordpress.com     Director of Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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> --
>
> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
> Find me at: Menno Adventures... https://sustainabledevelopmentresource
> s.wordpress.com     Director of Program Development - www.smcegypt.org
>
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