[fvc-wat-disc] fvc-wat-disc Digest, Vol 111, Issue 1
Eleanor Grant
eleanor7000 at gmail.com
Mon Jun 4 12:49:15 EDT 2018
Hello Fair Voters:
Have you been watching poll analyst Erin Kelly on TVO The Agenda? She
claims that even if the NDP wins the popular vote, there will still be a
Ford majority of 20 seats because of the efficiency of the PC vote. People
aren't grasping this!
See if this link works for Erin's June 1 interview with Steve Paikin:
https://t.co/c2DI3YFzMw?amp=1
It's a must-see.
I'm imagining the rage Ontarians will feel Friday morning if NDP is solidly
ahead in popular vote but we're stuck with Ford for 4 yrs.
Eleanor
On 4 Jun 2018 09:58, <fvc-wat-disc-request at listserv.thinkers.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [fvc-wat-announce] Meet The Waterloo Candidates Tomorrow
> Night! (Donald Fraser)
> 2. Re: Discussion group tonight! (Donald Fraser)
> 3. Re: [fvc-wat-announce] Meet The Waterloo Candidates Tomorrow
> Night! (Jennifer Ross)
> 4. Re: Discussion group tonight! (Corliss Olson)
> 5. Latest liberal tactic (Jay Judkowitz)
> 6. Re: Latest liberal tactic (Jennifer Ross)
> 7. Re: Latest liberal tactic (David Dolson)
> 8. Re: Latest liberal tactic (Jay Judkowitz)
> 9. Re: Latest liberal tactic (Bob Jonkman)
> 10. Re: Latest liberal tactic (Stephanie Janzen-Martin)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
> To: Jennifer Ross <jenn at jenniferross.ca>, FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <
> fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 08:48:54 -0400
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] [fvc-wat-announce] Meet The Waterloo
> Candidates Tomorrow Night!
> "you need 30,000 of those 20,000 to vote yes" ... this sounds like
> travelling faster than light
>
> On 30 May 2018 at 13:06, Jennifer Ross <2jennross at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Heh, we have a National Council member coming from a long way away to
>> work on Schreiner's campaign next week. And then, he's going to drive up
>> to Ottawa for the FVC AGM. Which, you can, too!
>> https://www.eventbrite.com/e/fair-vote-canada-agm-2018-ticke
>> ts-45842411888
>>
>> For those who are maybe nervous about voting NDP, and cynical altogether,
>> I believe the BC-NDP just came through. A two-part question, followed by
>> three options of PR. Yippee!!!! (My opinion only)
>>
>> But I'm excited! I'm looking forward to this year now!! On the other
>> hand, the PEI referendum is an absolute joke. And NOT funny!! Have you
>> guys heard? 50% of people voting in ANOTHER election have to vote yes
>> (i.e., if the municipal elections have 60,000 votes and the referendum has
>> 20,000 votes, you need 30,000 of those 20,000 to vote yes) And if you
>> don't vote at all in the referendum, your non-vote counts on the 'no'
>> column. Oh, and just in case, you also have to have 60% support of the
>> ridings. (27 ridings means above-calculated yes votes in 14 of them) In
>> case that wasn't hedging their bets enough, both the yes side and the no
>> side get $75,000 of government money. There can be any number of groups
>> who can qualify for the yes side and the no side. So if 20 people at five
>> people per group choose to say they'd like to be on the yes side, that is
>> $15,000 the FVC-PEI team gets to spend. No telling if the other four
>> qualified yes advertisers will spend wisely, have a clue what they are
>> doing, aren't really no side supporters, etc. And our team can't spend any
>> more, or advocate for PR until the next *Provincial election!* How's
>> that for silencing opponents? The money these Liberals will spend to NOT
>> give us what we want is astounding. I mean, saying no at the outset
>> doesn't cost anything. Not campaigning on changing the voting system costs
>> even less.
>>
>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:40 PM, Catherine Campbell <
>> cdcampbell9 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Guelph Green hq 163 Suffolk, GUELPH
>>>
>>> On May 30, 2018, at 12:33 PM, Jennifer Ross <2jennross at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, I want a minority and if this keeps up we'll overshoot the mark
>>> the way we did Federally. And look where THAT got us! I still haven't
>>> completely made up my mind, but if splitting the NDP vote with the Greens
>>> means a Conservative candidate, in Kitchener Centre I'm okay with that.
>>> Not if it means a Doug Ford government of course, but that is looking less
>>> likely by the day! Horwath is up five points and Ford lost five points
>>> since the final debate, according to this poll:
>>> https://www.macleans.ca/politics/the-macleans-pollara-ontari
>>> o-election-poll-the-ndp-lead-keeps-growing/
>>>
>>> Jenn
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Catherine Campbell <
>>> cdcampbell9 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Voters should vote to get the government that will deliver most closely
>>>> the policies they want. Voters don’t know and most never meet their elected
>>>> representatives. So who cares about the local candidate. Doug Ford and his
>>>> gelding candidates will do what Conservatives always do in office which is
>>>> the opposite of my idea of good government. So I voted for Catherine Fife
>>>> in Waterloo because she is the only one who can defeat the PC candidate and
>>>> his large number of Conservative Waterloo voters. In KC, I heard last week
>>>> that Verneille is polling at 7 percent. So the NDP candidate there is the
>>>> best way to avoid Ford’s $6 billion tax cuts. The CAA about two months
>>>> ago told its members to lobby politicians to quickly fix potholes to save
>>>> their precious status symbol vehicles from expensive repairs. The first
>>>> step is to vote people to Queens Park who won’t cut $6 billion from the
>>>> budget. Who cares that you have to vote NDP in KC instead of Liberal or
>>>> Green?
>>>>
>>>> On May 30, 2018, at 12:10 PM, Catherine Campbell <cdcampbell9 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Has Dan Weber been avoiding all candidates meetings?
>>>>
>>>> On May 30, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Jennifer Ross <2jennross at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So far the only one that has attended, as I understand it, is Kitchener
>>>> Centre's Mary Henein Thorn. Who is truly a lovely woman and good on her!!
>>>> Too bad her leader is a complete disaster.
>>>>
>>>> But here's the thing. We want local representation! We can't have PR
>>>> because our local isn't so local that way, and so we are willing to put up
>>>> with all the problems of FPTP just so we can have local representation!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> The Kitchener Conestoga guy was appointed so even registered PCs may
>>>> not have met him. All the Conservative big signs that I've seen so far,
>>>> including this one, do not have the candidates picture on them unlike most
>>>> every other party. And they don't show up in public. And in this case,
>>>> the guy has the same name as the last guy--but its a different guy! So how
>>>> much value does local representation have when you either, have no idea who
>>>> this person is, or, think you are voting for someone else?
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Catherine Campbell <
>>>> cdcampbell9 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Did the PC candidate attend. I read in the newspaper that PC
>>>>> candidates province wide are avoiding the small candidates meetings. If you
>>>>> people want to prevent a leader becoming premier and his party with
>>>>> policies contrary to Fair Vote, go vote today, Wednesday, May 30 at the
>>>>> advance polls which are open until 8pm. Stop talking about reforming
>>>>> elections and go vote in this election.
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 30, 2018, at 7:33 AM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> can you believe I forgot to go ... and it was on my calendar ....
>>>>> arggggggh
>>>>>
>>>>> On 28 May 2018 at 22:20, Sharon Sommerville <
>>>>> sharonsommerville at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello FairVoters,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The third All Candidates Meeting will be tomorrow night in Waterloo.
>>>>>> So far the turn out and response to the discussion format has been
>>>>>> tremendous. Tomorrow evening we will be talking about Income Security,
>>>>>> Housing, the Environment, Health Care and Democratic Reform.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Join us at 6 pm at First United Church ( William & King) for an
>>>>>> engaging & important evening.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> Sharon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-announce mailing list
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-announce_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political
>>>> power in the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime
>>>> Minister.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in
>>> the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in
>> the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_l
>> istserv.thinkers.org
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 08:56:50 -0400
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Discussion group tonight!
> sorry about the spelling ... that's Horwath not Howarth
>
> On 31 May 2018 at 19:12, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes I must apologize also ... Andrea Howarth came to town suddenly (only
>> found out yesterday) for a whistle stop ... I waited an hour as she was
>> late and left ... it would have been better to go to FVC
>>
>> On 30 May 2018 at 21:01, Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry I didn’t make it.
>>>
>>> Grandson’s baseball game.
>>>
>>> See some of you Saturday.
>>>
>>> Dave A
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>>> Windows 10
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net>
>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, May 30, 2018 4:50 PM
>>> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>> <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>; David dirks
>>> <daviddirks at rogers.com>
>>>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Discussion group tonight!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’ll be a bit late.
>>>
>>> Dave A
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>>> Windows 10
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Ellen Papenburg <sagittaep at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, May 30, 2018 4:21 PM
>>> *To: *David dirks <daviddirks at rogers.com>; FVC Waterloo Region
>>> Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Discussion group tonight!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey Evan it might be only you, Jim and me..
>>>
>>> Ellen
>>>
>>> (via my android phone, typos can occur)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 30, 2018, 16:15 David dirks <daviddirks at rogers.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am passing too, as Andrea Horwath is in town.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 4:04 PM, Cathy Scott <
>>> cathy.scottfree at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi, Evan
>>>
>>> I won't be there for the Fair Vote meeting tonight.I have another
>>> political meeting.
>>>
>>> Cathy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 2:40 PM, Evan Rosamond <erosamond at worldline.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Fair Voters,
>>>
>>> Tonight's discussion ought to be a noisy affair. I'm not even going to
>>> try to keep the current election from dominating.
>>>
>>> Where: Bed & Roses meeting room, Queen St S at Courtland.
>>>
>>> When: 7-9 pm tonight
>>>
>>> Note: Due to construction around the front door, you will have to enter
>>> via the back door, by the back parking lot (residents' parking only) next
>>> to Clemens Lane. Ellen or delegate will open the door for you. Parking is
>>> at the usual overflow lot next to the lawyer's office a little up the hill.
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________ _________________
>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers .org
>>> <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_l istserv.thinkers.org
>>> <http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jennifer Ross <2jennross at gmail.com>
> To: Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
> Cc: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 10:27:20 -0400
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] [fvc-wat-announce] Meet The Waterloo
> Candidates Tomorrow Night!
> Oh, it is! And I forgot a few, such as no political party can mention in
> any campaign materials or anything where they stand on electoral reform
> because they can't spend more than $500 on the issue. And, if by some
> miracle you managed to get through all these impossible hoops--it isn't
> binding anyway!
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:48 AM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "you need 30,000 of those 20,000 to vote yes" ... this sounds like
>> travelling faster than light
>>
>> On 30 May 2018 at 13:06, Jennifer Ross <2jennross at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Heh, we have a National Council member coming from a long way away to
>>> work on Schreiner's campaign next week. And then, he's going to drive up
>>> to Ottawa for the FVC AGM. Which, you can, too!
>>> https://www.eventbrite.com/e/fair-vote-canada-agm-2018-ticke
>>> ts-45842411888
>>>
>>> For those who are maybe nervous about voting NDP, and cynical
>>> altogether, I believe the BC-NDP just came through. A two-part question,
>>> followed by three options of PR. Yippee!!!! (My opinion only)
>>>
>>> But I'm excited! I'm looking forward to this year now!! On the other
>>> hand, the PEI referendum is an absolute joke. And NOT funny!! Have you
>>> guys heard? 50% of people voting in ANOTHER election have to vote yes
>>> (i.e., if the municipal elections have 60,000 votes and the referendum has
>>> 20,000 votes, you need 30,000 of those 20,000 to vote yes) And if you
>>> don't vote at all in the referendum, your non-vote counts on the 'no'
>>> column. Oh, and just in case, you also have to have 60% support of the
>>> ridings. (27 ridings means above-calculated yes votes in 14 of them) In
>>> case that wasn't hedging their bets enough, both the yes side and the no
>>> side get $75,000 of government money. There can be any number of groups
>>> who can qualify for the yes side and the no side. So if 20 people at five
>>> people per group choose to say they'd like to be on the yes side, that is
>>> $15,000 the FVC-PEI team gets to spend. No telling if the other four
>>> qualified yes advertisers will spend wisely, have a clue what they are
>>> doing, aren't really no side supporters, etc. And our team can't spend any
>>> more, or advocate for PR until the next *Provincial election!* How's
>>> that for silencing opponents? The money these Liberals will spend to NOT
>>> give us what we want is astounding. I mean, saying no at the outset
>>> doesn't cost anything. Not campaigning on changing the voting system costs
>>> even less.
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:40 PM, Catherine Campbell <
>>> cdcampbell9 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Guelph Green hq 163 Suffolk, GUELPH
>>>>
>>>> On May 30, 2018, at 12:33 PM, Jennifer Ross <2jennross at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, I want a minority and if this keeps up we'll overshoot the mark
>>>> the way we did Federally. And look where THAT got us! I still haven't
>>>> completely made up my mind, but if splitting the NDP vote with the Greens
>>>> means a Conservative candidate, in Kitchener Centre I'm okay with that.
>>>> Not if it means a Doug Ford government of course, but that is looking less
>>>> likely by the day! Horwath is up five points and Ford lost five points
>>>> since the final debate, according to this poll:
>>>> https://www.macleans.ca/politics/the-macleans-pollara-ontari
>>>> o-election-poll-the-ndp-lead-keeps-growing/
>>>>
>>>> Jenn
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Catherine Campbell <
>>>> cdcampbell9 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Voters should vote to get the government that will deliver most
>>>>> closely the policies they want. Voters don’t know and most never meet their
>>>>> elected representatives. So who cares about the local candidate. Doug Ford
>>>>> and his gelding candidates will do what Conservatives always do in office
>>>>> which is the opposite of my idea of good government. So I voted for
>>>>> Catherine Fife in Waterloo because she is the only one who can defeat the
>>>>> PC candidate and his large number of Conservative Waterloo voters. In KC,
>>>>> I heard last week that Verneille is polling at 7 percent. So the NDP
>>>>> candidate there is the best way to avoid Ford’s $6 billion tax cuts. The
>>>>> CAA about two months ago told its members to lobby politicians to quickly
>>>>> fix potholes to save their precious status symbol vehicles from expensive
>>>>> repairs. The first step is to vote people to Queens Park who won’t cut $6
>>>>> billion from the budget. Who cares that you have to vote NDP in KC instead
>>>>> of Liberal or Green?
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 30, 2018, at 12:10 PM, Catherine Campbell <
>>>>> cdcampbell9 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Has Dan Weber been avoiding all candidates meetings?
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 30, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Jennifer Ross <2jennross at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> So far the only one that has attended, as I understand it, is
>>>>> Kitchener Centre's Mary Henein Thorn. Who is truly a lovely woman and good
>>>>> on her!! Too bad her leader is a complete disaster.
>>>>>
>>>>> But here's the thing. We want local representation! We can't have PR
>>>>> because our local isn't so local that way, and so we are willing to put up
>>>>> with all the problems of FPTP just so we can have local representation!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> The Kitchener Conestoga guy was appointed so even registered PCs may
>>>>> not have met him. All the Conservative big signs that I've seen so far,
>>>>> including this one, do not have the candidates picture on them unlike most
>>>>> every other party. And they don't show up in public. And in this case,
>>>>> the guy has the same name as the last guy--but its a different guy! So how
>>>>> much value does local representation have when you either, have no idea who
>>>>> this person is, or, think you are voting for someone else?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Catherine Campbell <
>>>>> cdcampbell9 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Did the PC candidate attend. I read in the newspaper that PC
>>>>>> candidates province wide are avoiding the small candidates meetings. If you
>>>>>> people want to prevent a leader becoming premier and his party with
>>>>>> policies contrary to Fair Vote, go vote today, Wednesday, May 30 at the
>>>>>> advance polls which are open until 8pm. Stop talking about reforming
>>>>>> elections and go vote in this election.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 30, 2018, at 7:33 AM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> can you believe I forgot to go ... and it was on my calendar ....
>>>>>> arggggggh
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 28 May 2018 at 22:20, Sharon Sommerville <
>>>>>> sharonsommerville at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello FairVoters,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The third All Candidates Meeting will be tomorrow night in
>>>>>>> Waterloo. So far the turn out and response to the discussion format has
>>>>>>> been tremendous. Tomorrow evening we will be talking about Income
>>>>>>> Security, Housing, the Environment, Health Care and Democratic Reform.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Join us at 6 pm at First United Church ( William & King) for an
>>>>>>> engaging & important evening.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>> Sharon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-announce mailing list
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-announce_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political
>>>>> power in the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime
>>>>> Minister.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political
>>>> power in the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime
>>>> Minister.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in
>>> the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in
> the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Corliss Olson <cpolson11 at gmail.com>
> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 10:32:56 -0400
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Discussion group tonight!
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I rarely weigh in, but I am a solid advocate for PR & a member of this
> group.
>
> I have been doing *a lot* of door-knocking for the NDP, in 2
> constituencies. While I have sensed a bit of a shift in the last few days,
> in no way is victory assured. In Kitchener-Conestoga, many people do not
> even know about the nastiness surrounding the dumping of Michael Harris &
> the sleight-of-hand appointment of Mike Harris, a disturbing affront to
> democracy, and perhaps a telling comment on public awareness of issues and
> candidates.
>
> Even with the NDP coming up in the polls, I am very fearful that we are
> still looking at a PC government, maybe even a majority, and the prospect
> of Premier Ford. I would caution against hedging bets to try to ensure a
> minority government at this point. Rather, I will continue to work for the
> NDP (with a solid platform aligned with my values) -- and commit to pushing
> for PR after the election, whatever the outcome. There is a far better
> chance for PR with the NDP than with anyone else.
>
> Thanks,
> Corliss
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:56 AM, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> sorry about the spelling ... that's Horwath not Howarth
>>
>> On 31 May 2018 at 19:12, Donald Fraser <donaldafraser at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes I must apologize also ... Andrea Howarth came to town suddenly (only
>>> found out yesterday) for a whistle stop ... I waited an hour as she was
>>> late and left ... it would have been better to go to FVC
>>>
>>> On 30 May 2018 at 21:01, Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sorry I didn’t make it.
>>>>
>>>> Grandson’s baseball game.
>>>>
>>>> See some of you Saturday.
>>>>
>>>> Dave A
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>>>> Windows 10
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net>
>>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, May 30, 2018 4:50 PM
>>>> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>>> <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>; David dirks
>>>> <daviddirks at rogers.com>
>>>>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Discussion group tonight!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’ll be a bit late.
>>>>
>>>> Dave A
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>>>> Windows 10
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Ellen Papenburg <sagittaep at gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, May 30, 2018 4:21 PM
>>>> *To: *David dirks <daviddirks at rogers.com>; FVC Waterloo Region
>>>> Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Discussion group tonight!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey Evan it might be only you, Jim and me..
>>>>
>>>> Ellen
>>>>
>>>> (via my android phone, typos can occur)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 30, 2018, 16:15 David dirks <daviddirks at rogers.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am passing too, as Andrea Horwath is in town.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 4:04 PM, Cathy Scott <
>>>> cathy.scottfree at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Evan
>>>>
>>>> I won't be there for the Fair Vote meeting tonight.I have another
>>>> political meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Cathy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 2:40 PM, Evan Rosamond <erosamond at worldline.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Fair Voters,
>>>>
>>>> Tonight's discussion ought to be a noisy affair. I'm not even going to
>>>> try to keep the current election from dominating.
>>>>
>>>> Where: Bed & Roses meeting room, Queen St S at Courtland.
>>>>
>>>> When: 7-9 pm tonight
>>>>
>>>> Note: Due to construction around the front door, you will have to enter
>>>> via the back door, by the back parking lot (residents' parking only) next
>>>> to Clemens Lane. Ellen or delegate will open the door for you. Parking is
>>>> at the usual overflow lot next to the lawyer's office a little up the hill.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________ _________________
>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers .org
>>>> <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_l istserv.thinkers.org
>>>> <http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/m
>>>> ailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_l
>> istserv.thinkers.org
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jay Judkowitz <judkowitz at gmail.com>
> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 10:40:56 -0400
> Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] Latest liberal tactic
> Good morning,
>
> I'm sure most of us have noticed the recent Liberal message, "We're
> going to lose our majority, but vote for as many of us as possible to force
> a minority government so the evil PC and the irresponsible NDP can't ruin
> the province."
>
> If we had PR, this would be exactly the right message for them to go
> with. But, without PR, they will split the left of center vote and give us
> Premier Ford.
>
> My question to those of you with connections to the Liberal
> leadership is as follows. Are the so lacking in self awareness that they
> don't realize that they had 15 years to pass PR and to prepare for the
> inevitability of their eventual loss of majority? Or are they so cynical
> that they actually want Premier Ford figuring he'll break so much so
> quickly that they will soon be back in power with another majority?
>
> Thanks in advance for your insights.
>
> Best regards,
> Jay
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jennifer Ross <2jennross at gmail.com>
> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 11:05:58 -0400
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Latest liberal tactic
> In my opinion, I think it is one of tone-deafness. They aren't thinking
> of it now since it just isn't something they consider. And, once back in
> power, it is an evil that elects extremists. Fair Vote Canada did tweet
> back to Wynne about why PR is important to get her to consider it, but I
> think Wynne has always been a soft supporter anyway. It isn't her, its
> everybody else! But, I don't have friends in high places, either.
>
> I'd like to know whether my messaging Dianne Verneil at this point (two
> days before she loses her job) is being an asshole/rubbing it in/no
> compassion sort of thing, or whether it might give her the "ah-hah"
> moment. Do I care what she thinks of me? No, not much. I do care I'm not
> completely seen as a total asshole by the Liberal riding association in
> general though. Maybe I already am in which case I have nothing to lose,
> but KNOWING I'm doing that to myself is not something I would particularly
> like to do. I expect you've all heard that I'm the only person in the
> years Dianne Verneil has been our MPP, that has ever mentioned it to her?
> LOL!!! (i.e., not true)
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Jay Judkowitz <judkowitz at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Good morning,
>>
>> I'm sure most of us have noticed the recent Liberal message, "We're
>> going to lose our majority, but vote for as many of us as possible to force
>> a minority government so the evil PC and the irresponsible NDP can't ruin
>> the province."
>>
>> If we had PR, this would be exactly the right message for them to go
>> with. But, without PR, they will split the left of center vote and give us
>> Premier Ford.
>>
>> My question to those of you with connections to the Liberal
>> leadership is as follows. Are the so lacking in self awareness that they
>> don't realize that they had 15 years to pass PR and to prepare for the
>> inevitability of their eventual loss of majority? Or are they so cynical
>> that they actually want Premier Ford figuring he'll break so much so
>> quickly that they will soon be back in power with another majority?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your insights.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Jay
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_l
>> istserv.thinkers.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> No other Western democratic country concentrates as much political power in
> the hands of one person as Canada does with her Prime Minister.
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: David Dolson <ddolson at golden.net>
> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2018 11:10:14 -0400
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Latest liberal tactic
> In my opinion, At this point, to advance PR, our message should be "elect
> the best candidate in your riding. Forget parties.
>
>
> -Dave
> *From: *Jay Judkowitz
> *Sent: *Sunday, June 3, 2018 10:41 AM
> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> *Subject: *[fvc-wat-disc] Latest liberal tactic
>
> Good morning,
>
> I'm sure most of us have noticed the recent Liberal message, "We're
> going to lose our majority, but vote for as many of us as possible to force
> a minority government so the evil PC and the irresponsible NDP can't ruin
> the province."
>
> If we had PR, this would be exactly the right message for them to go
> with. But, without PR, they will split the left of center vote and give us
> Premier Ford.
>
> My question to those of you with connections to the Liberal
> leadership is as follows. Are the so lacking in self awareness that they
> don't realize that they had 15 years to pass PR and to prepare for the
> inevitability of their eventual loss of majority? Or are they so cynical
> that they actually want Premier Ford figuring he'll break so much so
> quickly that they will soon be back in power with another majority?
>
> Thanks in advance for your insights.
>
> Best regards,
> Jay
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jay Judkowitz <judkowitz at gmail.com>
> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 11:53:52 -0400
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Latest liberal tactic
> Exactly!
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018, 11:43 AM David Dolson <ddolson at golden.net> wrote:
>
>> In my opinion, At this point, to advance PR, our message should be "elect
>> the best candidate in your riding. Forget parties.
>>
>>
>> -Dave
>> *From: *Jay Judkowitz
>> *Sent: *Sunday, June 3, 2018 10:41 AM
>> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>> *Subject: *[fvc-wat-disc] Latest liberal tactic
>>
>> Good morning,
>>
>> I'm sure most of us have noticed the recent Liberal message, "We're
>> going to lose our majority, but vote for as many of us as possible to force
>> a minority government so the evil PC and the irresponsible NDP can't ruin
>> the province."
>>
>> If we had PR, this would be exactly the right message for them to go
>> with. But, without PR, they will split the left of center vote and give us
>> Premier Ford.
>>
>> My question to those of you with connections to the Liberal
>> leadership is as follows. Are the so lacking in self awareness that they
>> don't realize that they had 15 years to pass PR and to prepare for the
>> inevitability of their eventual loss of majority? Or are they so cynical
>> that they actually want Premier Ford figuring he'll break so much so
>> quickly that they will soon be back in power with another majority?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your insights.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Jay
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_
>> listserv.thinkers.org
>>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com>
> To: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 13:18:44 -0400
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Latest liberal tactic
> Of course, voting for the best candidate in your riding has always been
> the correct strategy, no matter what the polls or the politicians say
> today.
>
> As long as our voting system is Single Member Plurality, ie.
> Winner-Take-All (and "Winner" may be the candidate with only 29% of the
> vote), the voters cannot expect that their concerns will be addressed by
> an MPP that doesn't share those concerns. This means that if a voter's
> strategic vote is successful, they've guaranteed they're getting a
> candidate who won't act on their concerns.
>
> Kathleen Wynne's exhortation that people should vote Liberal for a
> minority government may just result in enough votes to win a few swing
> ridings (eg. Kitchener--Conestoga). Strangely, conceding defeat may
> actually be a winning strategy.
>
> But regardless of the outcome, I doubt the three big parties will act on
> implementing proportional representation, because there's always the
> next election where they could win big with a minority of votes.
>
> --Bob.
>
>
>
> Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com> Phone: +1-519-635-9413
> SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/
> Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting
> GnuPG Fngrprnt:04F7 742B 8F54 C40A E115 26C2 B912 89B0 D2CC E5EA
>
>
>
>
> On 2018-06-03 11:53 AM, Jay Judkowitz wrote:
> > Exactly!
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018, 11:43 AM David Dolson <ddolson at golden.net> wrote:
> >
> >> In my opinion, At this point, to advance PR, our message should be
> "elect
> >> the best candidate in your riding. Forget parties.
> >>
> >>
> >> -Dave
> >> *From: *Jay Judkowitz
> >> *Sent: *Sunday, June 3, 2018 10:41 AM
> >> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> >> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> >> *Subject: *[fvc-wat-disc] Latest liberal tactic
> >>
> >> Good morning,
> >>
> >> I'm sure most of us have noticed the recent Liberal message,
> "We're
> >> going to lose our majority, but vote for as many of us as possible to
> force
> >> a minority government so the evil PC and the irresponsible NDP can't
> ruin
> >> the province."
> >>
> >> If we had PR, this would be exactly the right message for them to
> go
> >> with. But, without PR, they will split the left of center vote and
> give us
> >> Premier Ford.
> >>
> >> My question to those of you with connections to the Liberal
> >> leadership is as follows. Are the so lacking in self awareness that
> they
> >> don't realize that they had 15 years to pass PR and to prepare for the
> >> inevitability of their eventual loss of majority? Or are they so
> cynical
> >> that they actually want Premier Ford figuring he'll break so much so
> >> quickly that they will soon be back in power with another majority?
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance for your insights.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Jay
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
> >> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> >> Unsubscribe:
> >> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_
> listserv.thinkers.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
> > Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> > Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_
> listserv.thinkers.org
> >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Stephanie Janzen-Martin <stephanie at janzenmartin.net>
> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 09:57:57 -0400
> Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Latest liberal tactic
> Hi all,
>
> I agree that her messaging would have made much more sense with PR than
> now, when it can easily come across as quite negative ie "We could handle
> the responsibilities of being gov't but nobody else can, so if you can't
> have us, you can't have anybody else, either...". For me, she would have
> earned a lot more respect if she would have have said something like "I
> know that our time here is up, for a variety of reasons. I still want the
> progressive values I work for to continue and would happily support an NDP
> gov't. Let's work together to ensure that the divisiveness of Ford doesn't
> take hold in Ontatio."
>
> Then, in any close ridings, the progressive vote wouldn't get split, and
> probably, a lot of what the Liberals want, they would get in an NDP gov't.
> Next step after that would be PR.
>
> Wishful thinking, I know - but that, in my opinion, was her best shot at
> going out with the most respect. :)
>
> Just what comes to mind for me in this discussion at this point.
>
> SJM
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 1:20 PM Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com> wrote:
>
>> Of course, voting for the best candidate in your riding has always been
>> the correct strategy, no matter what the polls or the politicians say
>> today.
>>
>> As long as our voting system is Single Member Plurality, ie.
>> Winner-Take-All (and "Winner" may be the candidate with only 29% of the
>> vote), the voters cannot expect that their concerns will be addressed by
>> an MPP that doesn't share those concerns. This means that if a voter's
>> strategic vote is successful, they've guaranteed they're getting a
>> candidate who won't act on their concerns.
>>
>> Kathleen Wynne's exhortation that people should vote Liberal for a
>> minority government may just result in enough votes to win a few swing
>> ridings (eg. Kitchener--Conestoga). Strangely, conceding defeat may
>> actually be a winning strategy.
>>
>> But regardless of the outcome, I doubt the three big parties will act on
>> implementing proportional representation, because there's always the
>> next election where they could win big with a minority of votes.
>>
>> --Bob.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com> Phone: +1-519-635-9413
>> <(519)%20635-9413>
>> SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/
>> Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting
>> GnuPG Fngrprnt:04F7 742B 8F54 C40A E115 26C2 B912 89B0 D2CC E5EA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2018-06-03 11:53 AM, Jay Judkowitz wrote:
>> > Exactly!
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018, 11:43 AM David Dolson <ddolson at golden.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In my opinion, At this point, to advance PR, our message should be
>> "elect
>> >> the best candidate in your riding. Forget parties.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -Dave
>> >> *From: *Jay Judkowitz
>> >> *Sent: *Sunday, June 3, 2018 10:41 AM
>> >> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>> >> *Reply To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>> >> *Subject: *[fvc-wat-disc] Latest liberal tactic
>> >>
>> >> Good morning,
>> >>
>> >> I'm sure most of us have noticed the recent Liberal message,
>> "We're
>> >> going to lose our majority, but vote for as many of us as possible to
>> force
>> >> a minority government so the evil PC and the irresponsible NDP can't
>> ruin
>> >> the province."
>> >>
>> >> If we had PR, this would be exactly the right message for them to
>> go
>> >> with. But, without PR, they will split the left of center vote and
>> give us
>> >> Premier Ford.
>> >>
>> >> My question to those of you with connections to the Liberal
>> >> leadership is as follows. Are the so lacking in self awareness that
>> they
>> >> don't realize that they had 15 years to pass PR and to prepare for the
>> >> inevitability of their eventual loss of majority? Or are they so
>> cynical
>> >> that they actually want Premier Ford figuring he'll break so much so
>> >> quickly that they will soon be back in power with another majority?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks in advance for your insights.
>> >>
>> >> Best regards,
>> >> Jay
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>> >> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> >> Unsubscribe:
>> >> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_
>> listserv.thinkers.org
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>> > Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> > Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/
>> mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_
>> listserv.thinkers.org
>>
> --
>
> Stephanie Janzen-Martin
> Find me at: Menno Adventures... https://sustainabledevelopmentresource
> s.wordpress.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_
> listserv.thinkers.org
>
>
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