[fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star
Mary Jackes
mkj at bell.net
Fri Oct 1 13:26:31 EDT 2021
How about the DUP messing with what was going on in Westminster - more
or less controlling the Tory voice on Brexit under May? My favourite
example in response to this sort of question.
Mary
On 2021-10-01 1:09 p.m., Sharon Sommerville wrote:
> And, we can all remember when the BQ became Her Majesty's
> Official Opposition. FPTP does not protect us from radical parties
> gaining seats in Parliament. But people might not become so
> radicalized if there was more power sharing and their voices had an
> outlet in government before becoming more extreme.
>
> Sharon
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:02 PM Michael O'Brien
> <emandjayobrien at gmail.com <mailto:emandjayobrien at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Bob Hepburn is a schill for the Federal Liberal Party.
>
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 5:39 PM Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net
> <mailto:arthurd23 at bell.net>> wrote:
>
> Good letter Kevin.
>
> Does the Star say 150 limit?
>
> In the past with the KW Record I’ve gone over a bit and it’s
> been accepted.
>
> You could try.
>
> Dave A
>
> Sent from Mail
> <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
>
> *From: *Kevin Smith <mailto:kevedsmith at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Thursday, September 30, 2021 5:19 PM
> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in
> the Star
>
> *Hi folks:*
>
> *Here's my draft. 194 words. Do I really need to trim it to
> 150? Any feedback?*
>
> *Kevin.*
>
> *First Past the Post does not protect us*
>
> To the editor:
>
> Bob Hepburn argues that Maxime Bernier’s PPC Party shows the
> folly of Proportional Representation.However, we’ve seen how
> close we came to having Maxime Bernier as Prime Minister under
> First Past the Post.
>
> Andrew Sheer beat Maxime Bernier by 50.95% to 49.05% on the
> final ballot of the 2017 leadership vote.A change of one
> percentage point could have given us our very own Donald
> Trump-like figure leading that party.
>
> In 2019, with First Past the Post and as little as 3% more of
> the vote, the Conservatives would be able to win majority
> government with 100% of the power.
>
> So while PR could give a right-wing demagogue a voice in
> parliament, as every party with sufficient support would have,
> first-past-the-post could have made him Prime Minister with a
> minority of votes but a majority of seats.
>
> Let’s face it.Any party with 5% support stands a chance of
> winning seats in parliament in any system. With Proportional
> Representation, we have greater party choice, better
> representation, and parties that need to work together, and
> have less incentive to pull the plug and have elections like
> the one we just had.Far from folly, Bob.
>
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 4:31 PM Dave Arthur
> <arthurd23 at bell.net <mailto:arthurd23 at bell.net>> wrote:
>
> Thank you Anita. This is a very important topic.
>
> The linked article that Anita included is very much worth
> reading.
>
> We need to make the case that the results of our election
> in FPTP with low voter turnout, strategic voting, and all
> the covid polarization tinged with the populism that seems
> to be happening in many countries does not forecast what
> would happen with PR.
>
> In fact, PR would likely improve voter turnout, eliminate
> strategic voting, and reduce the effects of polarization
> and populism.
>
> Much of that would result from the increased cooperation
> of parties and a reduced toxic environment in our parliament.
>
> The Green vote would certainly increase to its past
> performance of more than the 5% threshold and mean
> considerably more than 2 seats.
>
> The PPC vote would very likely decrease and not meet the
> 5% threshold in addition to not likely electing anyone as
> was the case this time.
>
> One of the points I always make to people concerned about
> the fringe and single issue parties gaining influence is
> that in the last election, we had 14 such parties who
> together got less than 1% of the votes.
>
> We still have a job to do to counter the effect of the PPC.
>
> That could certainly include a letter to the Star.
>
> Dave A
>
> Sent from Mail
> <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
>
> *From: *Anita Nickerson <mailto:anitann88 at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Thursday, September 30, 2021 1:01 PM
> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece
> in the Star
>
> Please write to the Star!
>
> Yes, the PPC is costing us supporters.
>
> People are seeing those charts of 17-21 seats everywhere.
> It is costing us our own supporters - the many soft
> supporters, not the core long time people like you - and
> "the public". There is no doubt. I see it everywhere.
>
> I'm not really convinced that valiantly arguing that the
> PPC getting 21 seats because they "deserve" it, that's
> "better democracy", when they were basically a one-issue
> party this election for people who think blocking
> hospitals is great, is a winner with the people we need to
> convince. We may be democratically and morally and
> technically correct, but we're only convincing ourselves
> by focusing on that.
>
> There is no great argument that can defeat an EMOTIONAL
> knee-jerk fear people have of "extremists in Parliament."
> Logic does not overcome emotion. We have been thoroughly
> defeated on that field before.
>
> *Nevertheless, do try to give people something else to
> think about and focus on!
> *
> Like yes, remind people that Bernier sat in cabinet and
> came with 1.7% of winning the Con leadership.
>
> Then these folks who are terrified of having a few
> isolated PPC in a corner of Parliament could have a
> Bernier running the country on 33% of the vote. That's a
> realistic fear - that we can address now with electoral
> reform now - or wait until it's staring us in the face, at
> which point it becomes much more difficult.
>
> A PR system for Canada WOULD NOT deliver the PPC 17 or 21
> seats. Here is the reality:
>
> https://www.fairvote.ca/2021/09/22/simulationssmallparties/
> <https://www.fairvote.ca/2021/09/22/simulationssmallparties/>
>
> Milder numbers may take a dent of the fear, but won't
> remove it. For many people one PPC seat is too many and
> makes them think they'd rather stick with "the devil they
> know".
>
> The best tactic is likely to focus on the glaring flaws
> and consequences of our FPTP system for everyone.
>
> $600,000,000 early elections.
>
> Governments with 32.6% support who try to cooperate with
> others as little as humanly possible, when what we need
> are parties to cooperate to tackle issues that can only be
> solved by "all hands on deck" like climate change action.
>
> 25/25 seats in the City of Toronto going Lib and 14/14 in
> SK going Con - leaving NO VOICE for those with any other
> values.
>
> The vast majority who again elected nobody and the massive
> disengagement that is causing as voter turnout plummeted
> to 59%.
>
> Are we going to let fear of a handful of purple seats
> frighten us from solving those very big problems?
>
> *PLEASE WRITE TO THE STAR. So they see a LOT of people
> pushing back. *Much better than talking to each other on
> this list!
>
> Anita
>
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 7:08 AM stuchandler43
> <stuchandler43 at gmail.com <mailto:stuchandler43 at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> It doesn't take a genius to see through Bob Hepburn's
> bombastic blather about how scary PR is. It is truly
> unfortunate that he uses his position of "journalist"
> as a bully pulpit to spread his stupidity with such
> perceived authority.
>
> His piece contains the information necessary to refute
> his useless fear of Max Bernier and the PPC, who he
> claims would create havic with the 25 seats they may
> have gained under PR. 25 seats out of 338 would only
> be of influence if the Conservatives got about 160
> seats, and needed the PPC to pass legislation. With
> all the polls of public opinion in Canada indicating
> that Canadians are overwhelmingly progressive
> politically, there is zero likelihood of that
> happening under PR. But it could happen under FPTP
> (!!!!!), which could allow the CPC to "win" enough
> seats with 30% of the votes (let's say) to gain a
> minority close enough to half that the few seats
> Bernier /might /get (in this hypothetical case) could
> allow them to form a coalition government capable of
> passing legislation.
>
> So, once again, PR proves it's better than FPTP since
> such a scenario is */much /*less likely to happen with
> a PR Electoral system.
>
> Moreover, under FPTP, Justin has just been showing us
> how easy it is for his minority Liberal party to
> ignore most of what the NDP wants because he's been
> pretty sure the NDP will prop the Liberals up rather
> than risk forcing an election that might allow the
> Conservatives to gain power. (Only Justin was stupid
> enough to risk that fate!!)
>
> Ain't politics Fun?
>
> Cheerio
>
> Stu
>
> Sent from my Galaxy
>
> -------- Original message --------
>
> From: Kevin Smith <kevedsmith at gmail.com
> <mailto:kevedsmith at gmail.com>>
>
> Date: 2021-09-30 2:13 a.m. (GMT-05:00)
>
> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
> <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> <mailto:fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>>
>
> Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in
> the Star
>
> Things have gotten quiet apparently from the
> progressives calling for PR,, since the PPC would have
> been the main benefactor of it in this last election.
>
> https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2021/09/29/max-bernier-and-the-folly-of-electoral-reform.html
> <https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2021/09/29/max-bernier-and-the-folly-of-electoral-reform.html>
>
> Kevin.
>
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> --
>
> /Proportional representation delivers more of what YOU
> voted for!/
>
> Sign the Declaration: www.fairvote.ca/declaration
> <http://www.fairvote.ca/declaration>
>
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