[fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star

Sat Oct 2 00:15:46 EDT 2021

I submitted the letter, and that inspired a larger piece, which I posted to
my blog:

https://www.stepstoabetterworld.com/post/cpc-or-ppc-which-is-worse-and-what-can-we-do

Kevin.

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:27 PM Mary Jackes <mkj at bell.net> wrote:

> How about the DUP messing with what was going on in Westminster - more or
> less controlling the Tory voice on Brexit under May? My favourite example
> in response to this sort of question.
>
> Mary
> On 2021-10-01 1:09 p.m., Sharon Sommerville wrote:
>
> And, we can all remember when the BQ became Her Majesty's
> Official Opposition.  FPTP does not protect us from radical parties gaining
> seats in Parliament.  But people might not become so radicalized if there
> was more power sharing and their voices had an outlet in government before
> becoming more extreme.
>
> Sharon
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:02 PM Michael O'Brien <emandjayobrien at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Bob Hepburn is a schill for the Federal Liberal Party.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 5:39 PM Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Good letter Kevin.
>>>
>>> Does the Star say 150 limit?
>>>
>>> In the past with the KW Record I’ve gone over a bit and it’s been
>>> accepted.
>>>
>>> You could try.
>>>
>>> Dave A
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>>> Windows
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Kevin Smith <kevedsmith at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent: *Thursday, September 30, 2021 5:19 PM
>>> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>> <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Hi folks:*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Here's my draft.  194 words.  Do I really need to trim it to 150?  Any
>>> feedback?*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Kevin.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *First Past the Post does not protect us*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To the editor:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob Hepburn argues that Maxime Bernier’s PPC Party shows the folly of
>>> Proportional Representation.  However, we’ve seen how close we came to
>>> having Maxime Bernier as Prime Minister under First Past the Post.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew Sheer beat Maxime Bernier by 50.95% to 49.05% on the final ballot
>>> of the 2017 leadership vote.  A change of one percentage point could
>>> have given us our very own Donald Trump-like figure leading that party.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In 2019, with First Past the Post and as little as 3% more of the vote,
>>> the Conservatives would be able to win majority government with 100% of the
>>> power.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So while PR could give a right-wing demagogue a voice in parliament, as
>>> every party with sufficient support would have, first-past-the-post could
>>> have made him Prime Minister with a minority of votes but a majority of
>>> seats.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let’s face it.  Any party with 5% support stands a chance of winning
>>> seats in parliament in any system. With Proportional Representation, we
>>> have greater party choice, better representation, and parties that need to
>>> work together, and have less incentive to pull the plug and have elections
>>> like the one we just had.  Far from folly, Bob.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 4:31 PM Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you Anita. This is a very important topic.
>>>
>>> The linked article that Anita included is very much worth reading.
>>>
>>> We need to make the case that the results of our election in FPTP with
>>> low voter turnout, strategic voting, and all the covid polarization tinged
>>> with the populism that seems to be happening in many countries does not
>>> forecast what would happen with PR.
>>>
>>> In fact, PR would likely improve voter turnout, eliminate strategic
>>> voting, and reduce the effects of polarization and populism.
>>>
>>> Much of that would result from the increased cooperation of parties and
>>> a reduced toxic environment in our parliament.
>>>
>>> The Green vote would certainly increase to its past performance of more
>>> than the 5% threshold and mean considerably more than 2 seats.
>>>
>>> The PPC vote would very likely decrease and not meet the 5% threshold in
>>> addition to not likely electing anyone as was the case this time.
>>>
>>> One of the points I always make to people concerned about the fringe and
>>> single issue parties gaining influence is that in the last election, we had
>>> 14 such parties who together got less than 1% of the votes.
>>>
>>> We still have a job to do to counter the effect of the PPC.
>>>
>>> That could certainly include a letter to the Star.
>>>
>>> Dave A
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>>> Windows
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Anita Nickerson <anitann88 at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent: *Thursday, September 30, 2021 1:01 PM
>>> *To: *FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
>>> <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please write to the Star!
>>>
>>> Yes, the PPC is costing us supporters.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> People are seeing those charts of 17-21 seats everywhere. It is costing
>>> us our own supporters - the many soft supporters, not the core long time
>>> people like you - and "the public". There is no doubt. I see it everywhere.
>>>
>>> I'm not really convinced that valiantly arguing that the PPC getting 21
>>> seats because they "deserve" it, that's "better democracy", when they were
>>> basically a one-issue party this election for people who think blocking
>>> hospitals is great, is a winner with the people we need to convince. We may
>>> be democratically and morally and technically correct, but we're only
>>> convincing ourselves by focusing on that.
>>>
>>> There is no great argument that can defeat an EMOTIONAL knee-jerk fear
>>> people have of "extremists in Parliament." Logic does not overcome emotion.
>>> We have been thoroughly defeated on that field before.
>>>
>>>
>>> *Nevertheless, do try to give people something else to think about and
>>> focus on! *
>>> Like yes, remind people that Bernier sat in cabinet and came with 1.7%
>>> of winning the Con leadership.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Then these folks who are terrified of having a few isolated PPC in a
>>> corner of Parliament could have a Bernier running the country on 33% of the
>>> vote. That's a realistic fear - that we can address now with electoral
>>> reform now - or wait until it's staring us in the face, at which point it
>>> becomes much more difficult.
>>>
>>> A PR system for Canada WOULD NOT deliver the PPC 17 or 21 seats. Here is
>>> the reality:
>>>
>>> https://www.fairvote.ca/2021/09/22/simulationssmallparties/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Milder numbers may take a dent of the fear, but won't remove it. For
>>> many people one PPC seat is too many and makes them think they'd rather
>>> stick with "the devil they know".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The best tactic is likely to focus on the glaring flaws and consequences
>>> of our FPTP system for everyone.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> $600,000,000 early elections.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Governments with 32.6% support who try to cooperate with others as
>>> little as humanly possible, when what we need are parties to cooperate to
>>> tackle issues that can only be solved by "all hands on deck" like climate
>>> change action.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 25/25 seats in the City of Toronto going Lib and 14/14 in SK going Con -
>>> leaving NO VOICE for those with any other values.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The vast majority who again elected nobody and the massive disengagement
>>> that is causing as voter turnout plummeted to 59%.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Are we going to let fear of a handful of purple seats frighten us from
>>> solving those very big problems?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *PLEASE WRITE TO THE STAR. So they see a LOT of people pushing back. *Much
>>> better than talking to each other on this list!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anita
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 7:08 AM stuchandler43 <stuchandler43 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It doesn't take  a genius to see through Bob Hepburn's bombastic blather
>>> about how scary PR is. It is truly unfortunate that he uses his position of
>>> "journalist" as a bully pulpit to spread his stupidity with such perceived
>>> authority.
>>>
>>> His piece contains the information necessary to refute his useless fear
>>> of Max Bernier and the PPC, who he claims would create havic with the 25
>>> seats they may have gained under PR.  25 seats out of 338 would only be of
>>> influence if the Conservatives got about 160 seats, and needed the PPC to
>>> pass legislation.  With all the polls of public opinion in Canada
>>> indicating that Canadians are overwhelmingly progressive politically, there
>>> is zero likelihood of that happening under PR. But it could happen under
>>> FPTP (!!!!!), which could allow the CPC to "win" enough seats with 30% of
>>> the votes (let's say) to gain a minority close enough to half that the few
>>> seats Bernier *might *get (in this hypothetical case) could allow them
>>> to form a coalition government capable of passing legislation.
>>>
>>> So, once again, PR proves it's better than FPTP since such a scenario is *much
>>> *less likely to happen with a PR Electoral system.
>>>
>>> Moreover, under FPTP, Justin has just been showing us how easy it is for
>>> his minority Liberal party to ignore most of what the NDP wants because
>>> he's been pretty sure the NDP will prop the Liberals up rather than risk
>>> forcing an election that might allow the Conservatives to gain power.
>>> (Only Justin was stupid enough to risk that fate!!)
>>>
>>> Ain't politics Fun?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheerio
>>>
>>> Stu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my Galaxy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>
>>> From: Kevin Smith <kevedsmith at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Date: 2021-09-30 2:13 a.m. (GMT-05:00)
>>>
>>> To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org>
>>>
>>> Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Things have gotten quiet apparently from the progressives calling for
>>> PR,, since the PPC would have been the main benefactor of it in this last
>>> election.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2021/09/29/max-bernier-and-the-folly-of-electoral-reform.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> Unsubscribe:
>>> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Proportional representation delivers more of what YOU voted for!*
>>>
>>> Sign the Declaration: www.fairvote.ca/declaration
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> Unsubscribe:
>>> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>>> Unsubscribe:
>>> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
>> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
>> Unsubscribe:
>> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> Unsubscribe: http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> This is the fvc-wat-disc mailing list
> Post a message: fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org
> Unsubscribe:
> http://listserv.thinkers.org/mailman/listinfo/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.thinkers.org/pipermail/fvc-wat-disc_listserv.thinkers.org/attachments/20211002/d229d3d3/attachment-0001.htm>