[fvc-wat-disc] Sept 8: KPL presentation
Laurel L. Russwurm
laurel.l at russwurm.org
Wed Aug 3 16:06:06 EDT 2016
Paul says:
I see no reason at all or Fair Vote Waterloo to invite a FPTP entity.
This is a part that will be contentious: the KPL wants this
>> presentation to lean towards impartiality, with an honest
>> discussion of pros in cons. They are not interested in having us
>> advocate for one electoral system in particular, because they do
>> not want to come across as being partisan in this issue. I warned
>> the KPL that FVC tends to be unkind to FPTP and AV, but promised
>> that I would try to steer the direction of the presentation more
>> towards public information (Here is what is happening! Here are
>> our options! Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each!)
>> and less towards sermonizing (Proportional Representation is
>> amazing and you are a stupidhead if you don't support it!). I
>> have not seen Byron's presentation in a while, but I think that
>> it is reasonably close to something that will make the KPL
>> happy.
In both my Dennis Pilon videos (no, the 2nd isn't done) the first thing
he does is explain the different systems including FPTP. Steve Dyck did
the same thing at the Guelph event. This is reasonable.
Fair Vote does not advocate for any specific system, it advocates for
fair outcomes, which can ONLY mean a system from the proportional
family, which is not the same thing at all. The real point here is that
if the status quo is so easy, nobody should have to speak up for it.
FPTP is the default. It doesn't need FVCwrc's help
In my experience in the interest of being evenhanded FVC folk agree that
FPTP is simple. But it is not.
What this should be is FVC presenting information. Maybe holding mock
election for FPTP, STV and MMP
I know people say FPTP is simple but I disagree. It is no simpler for
voters to vote in FPTP than any PR system... unless you think 2 xes is
harder than one, or counting to twenty is too difficult. Even then, if
I'm not mistaken EVERY PR system suggested for Canada would be flexible
enough to allow voters to continue making a single mark if they so choose.
FPTP is not simpler, it is only FAMILIAR.
Raj Saini complained about voters accidentally marking the Libertarian
candidate when seeing "Lib" rather than the Liberal candidate.
And Dennis Pilon says we spoil more ballots here in Canada under FPTP
than under STV in Ireland (said to be the most difficult form of PR for
voters)
I know I spent 30 years not understanding why my vote didn't ever
count. I was seriously on the verge of giving up on this futile faux
democracy and joined the ranks of non-voters but for the fact Paul
introduced Fair Vote Canada to Bob.
Fair Vote Canada is an advocate for Proportional Representation. It is a
LOBBY group for citizens... this is my understanding of why FVC has not
been invited to speak to the ERRE committee.
[Note: EVERY FVC member who can talk about PR with accuracy and
authority ought to be submitting themselves as committee expert witnesses.
From the press release:
—REQUESTS TO APPEAR: Requests to appear may be sent to the Committee by
email (erre at parl.gc.ca <mailto:erre at parl.gc.ca>) or by using the
appropriate button on the Committee’s website. Please note that the
Committee clerks will contact only those who are selected by the
Committee members to appear. Requests to appear must be submitted to the
Committee no later than October 7, 2016, at 11:59 p.m. (EDT).
http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=e&Mode=1&Parl=0&Ses=0&DocId=8385844
Presumably every committee member who worked on the presentation would
be suitable to argue "why Proportional Representation", as well as
Anita, Jennifer, Sharon, Steve Dyck from Guelph, Pat from FairVote Peel,
Larry Gordon, Wayne Smith, Kelly Carmichael and many more.
I am not saying to pretend not to be FVC folk, it should be clear you
are. If a ton of Fair Vote people request to appear I can't see them
being able to justify ignoring you all]
That's my two bits.
Regards,
Laurel
On 08/01/2016 03:27 PM, Sharon Sommerville wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I took some deliberate time off over the past few days, to re-charge
> and have not been a part of this discussion but it is Monday afternoon
> and time to get back at.
>
> First, so many thanks to Paul for taking this on, we would not have
> something cooking with the library if he hadn't. Thank you Paul.
>
> The format needs to honour both the need for even handedness by the
> library and our work to promote PR. Our power point presentation was
> designed to be as fair as is possible given our mandate ( it was put
> together by a multipartisan committee - 2 Liberals, 1 NDP, 1
> Conservative and 1 non aligned voter) and with additional adaptation
> could be more so. Specifically, the last slide which calls for PR
> could be removed.
>
> My personal preference would be to deliver our presentation followed
> by a robust Q & A and discussion. We could invite a number of folks
> that represent as spectrum political views to participate in the Q &
> A. I am not keen to organize a panel and invite someone from Keep
> Voting Simple as they will be getting lots of media attention due to
> the interest of the MSM to encourage controversy but to maintain the
> educational focus on electoral systems in general & promote dialogue
> in the community.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Kind regards,
> Sharon
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:47 PM, arthurd23 arthurd23
> <arthurd23 at bell.net <mailto:arthurd23 at bell.net>> wrote:
>
> Bob, you're correct but to the majority of voters, voting in FPTP
> is simple and therefore preferred.
>
> Their concern is not fairness or democracy.
>
> Paul, your comments on other pros os FPTP are valid if democracy
> is not important.
>
> My stance is that FPTP is not democratic unless the purpose of
> democracy is to eliminate fair representation for most Canadians.
>
> Unfortunately, for some Canadians, that is a pro for FPTP. In any
> discussion Fairvote would not need to call it a pro.
>
> The geographic balance that FPTP can provide can also be provided
> and even enhanced in a system such as MMP where the
> non-constituency MPs can be awarded with adjustments for
> geographic and diversity factors considered.
>
> Dave
>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com <mailto:bjonkman at sobac.com>>
>> Date: July 29, 2016 at 12:39 PM
>>
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Dave Arthur wrote:
>> > The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is that it is simple.
>>
>> But it's not. Try to explain how 39% of the vote results in 54%
>> of the
>> seats in parliament. Why 57% of the votes cast in Kitchener
>> South-Hespeler did not contribute to sending anyone to parliament.
>> That Elizabeth May does not represent 600,000 voters across Canada,
>> but only 104,000 people in Saanich-Gulf Islands (and maybe only the
>> 37,000 people who voted for her).
>>
>> While it is simple to fill in an FPTP ballot, the election
>> results are
>> baffling. And it is just as simple to fill in an MMP ballot (Two X
>> marks! Twice as hard!) or an STV ballot (counting from 1 to 5 is
>> pretty simple), and the election results from any proportional system
>> are much easier to understand.
>>
>> - --Bob.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/29/16 08:25, arthurd23 arthurd23 wrote:
>> > Thanks Paul.
>> >
>> > If we attempt to be impartial, it shouldn't be difficult to have PR
>> > pros vastly outnumber FPTP and AV pros.
>> >
>> > The only pro for FPTP that I am aware of is that it is simple. Are
>> > there any others?
>> >
>> > The only advantage of AV is that the winning candidate accumulates
>> > 50% support when you include enough second place and third place
>> > supporters who don't really favour the winning candidate.
>> >
>> > PR has by far the most pros.
>> >
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >> ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Paul Nijjar
>> >> <paul_nijjar at yahoo.ca <mailto:paul_nijjar at yahoo.ca>> Date:
>> July 29, 2016 at 3:18 AM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (CCing to fvc-wat-disc. I do not know whether it will get
>> >> through because I do not know if the mailing list has been
>> >> configured to work with Yahoo. But I will try.)
>> >>
>> >> Okay, we are booked for a presentation at the Kitchener Public
>> >> Library.
>> >>
>> >> I talked with the programming manager at the KPL over the phone
>> >> today. She said that if I got a blurb to her by tomorrow then it
>> >> could be included in the In Touch magazine. I just sent that
>> >> blurb to her now (unfortunately in addition to being lazy my
>> >> stomach started acting up this evening, and I have spent a lot of
>> >> time lying low). Here is the blurb:
>> >>
>> >> ----
>> >>
>> >> Prime Minister Trudeau has promised to make "every vote count"
>> >> in future elections, and the process of electoral reform is
>> >> currently underway. Why might the current electoral system
>> >> benefit from reform? What electoral reforms are being considered?
>> >> What are their advantages and disadvantages? How is this
>> >> electoral reform process structured? How can we participate in
>> >> this process? Representatives from Fair Vote Canada will address
>> >> these issues and take your questions.
>> >>
>> >> ----
>> >>
>> >> I also made a bunch of other promises and decisions that the
>> >> Executive might not like. Here is a summary:
>> >>
>> >> - The event will be held at the central branch of the library on
>> >> Thursday, Sept 8, from 7:00pm-8:30pm. (We also had the option of
>> >> Sept 1 or Sept 22, and I may have made the wrong choice.)
>> >>
>> >> - We were originally booked for Meeting Room A, which holds 60
>> >> people. I implied that we could get over 60 people to the event,
>> >> so we are rebooked for a bigger room (maybe the auditorium? It is
>> >> not clear). Now we have to keep that promise. If only 20 people
>> >> show up we will look pretty bad.
>> >>
>> >> - It sounds as if the KPL is more interested in a discussion of
>> >> different electoral systems, as well as non-electoral system
>> >> options including mandatory voting and electronic voting.
>> >> However, we should still cover the electoral reform process (the
>> >> committee, Monsef's five principles, etc)
>> >>
>> >> - This is a part that will be contentious: the KPL wants this
>> >> presentation to lean towards impartiality, with an honest
>> >> discussion of pros in cons. They are not interested in having us
>> >> advocate for one electoral system in particular, because they do
>> >> not want to come across as being partisan in this issue. I warned
>> >> the KPL that FVC tends to be unkind to FPTP and AV, but promised
>> >> that I would try to steer the direction of the presentation more
>> >> towards public information (Here is what is happening! Here are
>> >> our options! Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each!)
>> >> and less towards sermonizing (Proportional Representation is
>> >> amazing and you are a stupidhead if you don't support it!). I
>> >> have not seen Byron's presentation in a while, but I think that
>> >> it is reasonably close to something that will make the KPL
>> >> happy.
>> >>
>> >> - The current format is looking like a 45-minute presentation
>> >> followed by abundant Q&A. This format is not set in stone. In
>> >> particular, if we wanted to put together a panel (with some
>> >> representatives from Keep Voting Simple?) then that would be okay
>> >> with the KPL too.
>> >>
>> >> Managing Q&A is going to be tricky, because events like this
>> >> attract people who like to ramble instead of asking questions.
>> >> Maybe written questions are the way to go?
>> >>
>> >> - The KPL can provide a projector. We will provide laptops and
>> >> other equipment.
>> >>
>> >> - We are allowed to have a booth outside the presentation if we
>> >> want. (The KPL told us they will not give us their registration
>> >> list, but that's fine and we were not expecting that anyways.) I
>> >> am guessing we could invite LeadNow and other groups (Keep Voting
>> >> Simple?) to have booths as well, but I do not know for sure.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Next Steps ----------
>> >>
>> >> - Figure out what format the presentation will take. It seems to
>> >> me that Byron's presentation is adaptable if we use a
>> >> presentation. If we want to put together a panel then FVC can be
>> >> less even-handed, but the other panellists might be better at
>> >> convincing people than we are.
>> >>
>> >> - Figure out who will present. My guess is that the natural
>> >> choice is Byron or Sean, since they have done this presentation
>> >> before. There might be other good presenters available as well. I
>> >> am also open to doing the presenting in the worst case. (Really?
>> >> I am too anxious to staff a booth but I can present to a big
>> >> audience? I guess my ego is really that huge.)
>> >>
>> >> - Work towards getting a good turnout, especially amongst people
>> >> who are not already voting nerds. KPL marketing will definitely
>> >> help but we have work to do as well:
>> >>
>> >> + If FVC makes some tweets or Facebook posts, can the rest of us
>> >> retweet/like/promote those items? (Sean says that Anita has a
>> >> good social network, so maybe we can exploit that.) + Can we
>> >> personally invite friends, family and enemies to attend the
>> >> presentation? + We should let LeadNow know that this presentation
>> >> is happening. I can probably email Sylvie if she is not already
>> >> on this list. + We can let people know this is happening via the
>> >> announcement list.
>> >>
>> >> I am sure there are other promotional ideas as well. We should
>> >> not rest on our laurels about this.
>> >>
>> >> - We should not stop here. Having one prominent organization
>> >> agree to host a talk is good leverage for convincing others. We
>> >> should reach out to the libraries again. It would also be great
>> >> to hit up service clubs (Rotarians, Lions Club), co-ops (we have
>> >> had good success with housing co-ops in the past), church groups,
>> >> and maybe even the remaining electoral district associations
>> >> (even the Conservatives!).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> - --
>>
>>
>> - --
>> Bob Jonkman <bjonkman at sobac.com <mailto:bjonkman at sobac.com>>
>> Phone: +1-519-635-9413 <tel:%2B1-519-635-9413>
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--
Laurel L. Russwurm, Author <http://laurel.russwurm.org/blogs/> §
about.me <http://about.me/laurelrusswurm> § Libreleft Books
<http://libreleft.com>
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