[fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star

Sat Oct 2 15:09:19 EDT 2021

 Good on you, thank you!
David

    On Saturday, October 2, 2021, 12:16:28 AM EDT, Kevin Smith <kevedsmith at gmail.com> wrote:  

 I submitted the letter, and that inspired a larger piece, which I posted to my blog:
https://www.stepstoabetterworld.com/post/cpc-or-ppc-which-is-worse-and-what-can-we-do

Kevin.
On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:27 PM Mary Jackes <mkj at bell.net> wrote:

How about the DUP messing with what was going on in Westminster - more or less controlling the Tory voice on Brexit under May? My favourite example in response to this sort of question.

Mary

 On 2021-10-01 1:09 p.m., Sharon Sommerville wrote:

 And, we can all remember when the BQ became Her Majesty's Official Opposition.  FPTP does not protect us from radical parties gaining seats in Parliament.  But people might not become so radicalized if there was more power sharing and their voices had an outlet in government before becoming more extreme. 
  Sharon  
  On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:02 PM Michael O'Brien <emandjayobrien at gmail.com> wrote:

 Bob Hepburn is a schill for the Federal Liberal Party. 
  On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 5:39 PM Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:

Good letter Kevin.

Does the Star say 150 limit?

In the past with the KW Record I’ve gone over a bit and it’s been accepted.

You could try.

Dave A

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Kevin Smith
 Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 5:19 PM
 To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
 Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star

Hi folks:

Here's my draft.  194 words.  Do I really need to trim it to 150?  Any feedback?

Kevin.

First Past the Post does not protect us

To the editor:

Bob Hepburn argues that Maxime Bernier’s PPC Party shows the folly of Proportional Representation.  However, we’ve seen how close we came to having Maxime Bernier as Prime Minister under First Past the Post.

Andrew Sheer beat Maxime Bernier by 50.95% to 49.05% on the final ballot of the 2017 leadership vote.  A change of one percentage point could have given us our very own Donald Trump-like figure leading that party.

In 2019, with First Past the Post and as little as 3% more of the vote, the Conservatives would be able to win majority government with 100% of the power.

So while PR could give a right-wing demagogue a voice in parliament, as every party with sufficient support would have, first-past-the-post could have made him Prime Minister with a minority of votes but a majority of seats.

Let’s face it.  Any party with 5% support stands a chance of winning seats in parliament in any system. With Proportional Representation, we have greater party choice, better representation, and parties that need to work together, and have less incentive to pull the plug and have elections like the one we just had.  Far from folly, Bob.

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 4:31 PM Dave Arthur <arthurd23 at bell.net> wrote:

Thank you Anita. This is a very important topic.

The linked article that Anita included is very much worth reading.

We need to make the case that the results of our election in FPTP with low voter turnout, strategic voting, and all the covid polarization tinged with the populism that seems to be happening in many countries does not forecast what would happen with PR. 

In fact, PR would likely improve voter turnout, eliminate strategic voting, and reduce the effects of polarization and populism.

Much of that would result from the increased cooperation of parties and a reduced toxic environment in our parliament.

The Green vote would certainly increase to its past performance of more than the 5% threshold and mean considerably more than 2 seats.

The PPC vote would very likely decrease and not meet the 5% threshold in addition to not likely electing anyone as was the case this time.

One of the points I always make to people concerned about the fringe and single issue parties gaining influence is that in the last election, we had 14 such parties who together got less than 1% of the votes.

We still have a job to do to counter the effect of the PPC.

That could certainly include a letter to the Star.

Dave A

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Anita Nickerson
 Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 1:01 PM
 To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion
 Subject: Re: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star

Please write to the Star! 

 Yes, the PPC is costing us supporters. 

People are seeing those charts of 17-21 seats everywhere. It is costing us our own supporters - the many soft supporters, not the core long time people like you - and "the public". There is no doubt. I see it everywhere. 

 I'm not really convinced that valiantly arguing that the PPC getting 21 seats because they "deserve" it, that's "better democracy", when they were basically a one-issue party this election for people who think blocking hospitals is great, is a winner with the people we need to convince. We may be democratically and morally and technically correct, but we're only convincing ourselves by focusing on that. 

 There is no great argument that can defeat an EMOTIONAL knee-jerk fear people have of "extremists in Parliament." Logic does not overcome emotion. We have been thoroughly defeated on that field before.

 Nevertheless, do try to give people something else to think about and focus on! 

 Like yes, remind people that Bernier sat in cabinet and came with 1.7% of winning the Con leadership. 

Then these folks who are terrified of having a few isolated PPC in a corner of Parliament could have a Bernier running the country on 33% of the vote. That's a realistic fear - that we can address now with electoral reform now - or wait until it's staring us in the face, at which point it becomes much more difficult.

 A PR system for Canada WOULD NOT deliver the PPC 17 or 21 seats. Here is the reality:

 https://www.fairvote.ca/2021/09/22/simulationssmallparties/

Milder numbers may take a dent of the fear, but won't remove it. For many people one PPC seat is too many and makes them think they'd rather stick with "the devil they know".

The best tactic is likely to focus on the glaring flaws and consequences of our FPTP system for everyone. 

$600,000,000 early elections. 

Governments with 32.6% support who try to cooperate with others as little as humanly possible, when what we need are parties to cooperate to tackle issues that can only be solved by "all hands on deck" like climate change action. 

25/25 seats in the City of Toronto going Lib and 14/14 in SK going Con - leaving NO VOICE for those with any other values. 

The vast majority who again elected nobody and the massive disengagement that is causing as voter turnout plummeted to 59%. 

Are we going to let fear of a handful of purple seats frighten us from solving those very big problems?

PLEASE WRITE TO THE STAR. So they see a LOT of people pushing back. Much better than talking to each other on this list!

Anita

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 7:08 AM stuchandler43 <stuchandler43 at gmail.com> wrote:

It doesn't take  a genius to see through Bob Hepburn's bombastic blather about how scary PR is. It is truly unfortunate that he uses his position of "journalist" as a bully pulpit to spread his stupidity with such perceived authority. 

His piece contains the information necessary to refute his useless fear of Max Bernier and the PPC, who he claims would create havic with the 25 seats they may have gained under PR.  25 seats out of 338 would only be of influence if the Conservatives got about 160 seats, and needed the PPC to pass legislation.  With all the polls of public opinion in Canada indicating that Canadians are overwhelmingly progressive politically, there is zero likelihood of that happening under PR. But it could happen under FPTP (!!!!!), which could allow the CPC to "win" enough seats with 30% of the votes (let's say) to gain a minority close enough to half that the few seats Bernier might get (in this hypothetical case) could allow them to form a coalition government capable of passing legislation. 

So, once again, PR proves it's better than FPTP since such a scenario is much less likely to happen with a PR Electoral system.

Moreover, under FPTP, Justin has just been showing us how easy it is for his minority Liberal party to ignore most of what the NDP wants because he's been pretty sure the NDP will prop the Liberals up rather than risk forcing an election that might allow the Conservatives to gain power.  (Only Justin was stupid enough to risk that fate!!)

Ain't politics Fun?

Cheerio 

Stu

Sent from my Galaxy

-------- Original message --------

From: Kevin Smith <kevedsmith at gmail.com> 

Date: 2021-09-30 2:13 a.m. (GMT-05:00) 

To: FVC Waterloo Region Discussion <fvc-wat-disc at listserv.thinkers.org> 

Subject: [fvc-wat-disc] Bob Hepburn - anti-PR piece in the Star 

Things have gotten quiet apparently from the progressives calling for PR,, since the PPC would have been the main benefactor of it in this last election.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2021/09/29/max-bernier-and-the-folly-of-electoral-reform.html

Kevin.

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